Talk TV on Freeview

Post by Codger
Recently Talk TV switched its Freeview to channel 294.

I thought it had changed to online only?

Codger

2024-05-13 08:13:31 UTC

Post by Codger
Recently Talk TV switched its Freeview to channel 294.

I thought it had changed to online only?

That's what I thought, but not according to https://talk.tv/talktv/how-to-watch

Andy Burns

2024-05-13 08:29:30 UTC

Post by Codger
Recently Talk TV switched its Freeview to channel 294.

I thought it had changed to online only?

That's what I thought, but not according to https://talk.tv/talktv/how-to-watch

Has your TV/STB got an internet connection? The actual channel isn't
received through an aerial ...

David Wade

2024-05-13 08:11:20 UTC

Post by Codger
Recently Talk TV switched its Freeview to channel 294. But despite retuning all the Freeview
channels, I receive no signal on channel 294.

Streaming only now

Post by Codger
Any ideas please?

I believe they ran out of money.

Dave

Jeff Layman

2024-05-13 08:37:44 UTC

Post by Codger
Recently Talk TV switched its Freeview to channel 294. But despite retuning all the Freeview
channels, I receive no signal on channel 294.
Any ideas please?

It moved to Ch294 on Com4 on 24 April, and changed its name to Talk on 1
May. It's now only available as a stream on Ch294. When you switch to
Ch294 from another channel the channel info should show "data" for a few
seconds.

--
Jeff

Woody

2024-05-13 09:38:46 UTC

Recently Talk TV switched its Freeview to channel 294. But despite
retuning all the Freeview
channels, I receive no signal on channel 294.
Any ideas please?

You need a smart TV and go through the set-up menus until you find HbbTV
and turn the facility on. The TV should then be able to find Talk on 294
BUT it can take a few minutes before it appears.

If you have a Samsung smart TV you will find Talk on 4316 without doing
anything else.

Both stations are in HD and boy does it show!

Jeff Layman

2024-05-13 10:47:27 UTC

Recently Talk TV switched its Freeview to channel 294. But despite
retuning all the Freeview
channels, I receive no signal on channel 294.
Any ideas please?

You need a smart TV and go through the set-up menus until you find HbbTV
and turn the facility on. The TV should then be able to find Talk on 294
BUT it can take a few minutes before it appears.

The TV should show a basic info caption relating to "Talk" on Ch294 as
soon as the channel appears, in the same way that it would with BBC1,
ITV3, Channel4,or any other channel. However, if it's not a Smart TV or
connected to the internet that's as far as the viewer will get; the
screen will also probably go blank after a few seconds if the TV
determines there's no stream to show.

Post by Woody
If you have a Samsung smart TV you will find Talk on 4316 without doing
anything else.

I have a Panasonic TV connected to the internet and separate Panasonic
PVR not connected to the internet. I can see the difference between how
each behaves when 294 is keyed on each remote.

Why does a Samsung tune to 4316 when 294 is requested?

Post by Woody
Both stations are in HD and boy does it show!

"Both"? Are 4316 and 294 different channels?

--
Jeff

Woody

2024-05-13 14:59:04 UTC

Recently Talk TV switched its Freeview to channel 294. But despite
retuning all the Freeview
channels, I receive no signal on channel 294.
Any ideas please?

You need a smart TV and go through the set-up menus until you find HbbTV
and turn the facility on. The TV should then be able to find Talk on 294
BUT it can take a few minutes before it appears.

Post by Woody
If you have a Samsung smart TV you will find Talk on 4316 without doing
anything else.

I have a Panasonic TV connected to the internet and separate Panasonic
PVR not connected to the internet. I can see the difference between how
each behaves when 294 is keyed on each remote.
Why does a Samsung tune to 4316 when 294 is requested?

Post by Woody
Both stations are in HD and boy does it show!

"Both"? Are 4316 and 294 different channels?

294 uses the HbbTV facility.
4001-4499 (IMSC) are Samsung TV Plus channels and include lots of others
- like for instance EuroNews on 4003. 4316 is Talk, 4326 is GBNews.

Codger

2024-05-13 16:47:47 UTC

Recently Talk TV switched its Freeview to channel 294. But despite
retuning all the Freeview
channels, I receive no signal on channel 294.
Any ideas please?

You need a smart TV and go through the set-up menus until you find HbbTV
and turn the facility on. The TV should then be able to find Talk on 294
BUT it can take a few minutes before it appears.

Post by Woody
If you have a Samsung smart TV you will find Talk on 4316 without doing
anything else.

I have a Panasonic TV connected to the internet and separate Panasonic
PVR not connected to the internet. I can see the difference between how
each behaves when 294 is keyed on each remote.
Why does a Samsung tune to 4316 when 294 is requested?

Post by Woody
Both stations are in HD and boy does it show!

"Both"? Are 4316 and 294 different channels?

294 uses the HbbTV facility.
4001-4499 (IMSC) are Samsung TV Plus channels and include lots of others
- like for instance EuroNews on 4003. 4316 is Talk, 4326 is GBNews.

Thank you everyone for your replies. I have found it is available on YouTube and through a
Firestick app.

Jim Lesurf

2024-05-15 09:08:02 UTC

Post by Jeff Layman
The TV should show a basic info caption relating to "Talk" on Ch294 as
soon as the channel appears, in the same way that it would with BBC1,
ITV3, Channel4,or any other channel. However, if it's not a Smart TV or
connected to the internet that's as far as the viewer will get; the
screen will also probably go blank after a few seconds if the TV
determines there's no stream to show.

Curious that these channels (sic) get listed on "FreeView" (sic) when you'd
then have to pay for your internet use to watch them. But I assume this
suits those incapable of connecting a computer to their TV... and those who
want them as viewers.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Max Demian

2024-05-15 11:03:54 UTC

I don't think anyone seriously classes IPTV as Freeview, any more than
is PPV or Pay TV. They're just DTT.

--
Max Demian

Roderick Stewart

2024-05-15 11:24:15 UTC

On Wed, 15 May 2024 12:03:54 +0100, Max Demian

I don't think anyone seriously classes IPTV as Freeview, any more than
is PPV or Pay TV. They're just DTT.

A non-technical viewer who uses the same numerical buttons on the same
remote control in order to view the various channels on the same
screen probably would think of them all as the same thing. If the box
says "Freeview" on the front, well that's what they must be.

Rod.

Max Demian

2024-05-15 16:43:20 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Wed, 15 May 2024 12:03:54 +0100, Max Demian

I don't think anyone seriously classes IPTV as Freeview, any more than
is PPV or Pay TV. They're just DTT.

Select one of the IPTV channels and you'll still find that you need an
internet connection to receive the one (or more) TV channel behind it.

--
Max Demian

Roderick Stewart

2024-05-15 17:32:37 UTC

On Wed, 15 May 2024 17:43:20 +0100, Max Demian

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Wed, 15 May 2024 12:03:54 +0100, Max Demian

I don't think anyone seriously classes IPTV as Freeview, any more than
is PPV or Pay TV. They're just DTT.

Select one of the IPTV channels and you'll still find that you need an
internet connection to receive the one (or more) TV channel behind it.

I know this, but a non-technical person using a system that is already
set up would have no concept of where the programmes were coming from.
Some of the channels might take a few seconds longer to appear but
they wouldn't necessarily realise the significance of this.

Rod.

alan_m

2024-05-16 05:23:00 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart
I know this, but a non-technical person using a system that is already
set up would have no concept of where the programmes were coming from.
Some of the channels might take a few seconds longer to appear but
they wouldn't necessarily realise the significance of this.

Don't forget that the BBC is on Freeview and even if received over the
air that isn't free!

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Jim Lesurf

2024-05-17 14:00:03 UTC

Post by alan_m
Don't forget that the BBC is on Freeview and even if received over the
air that isn't free!

And of course you need the license to watch *any* channel via "Freeview".

Whereas even if you have no TV and hence don't need to pay for a license,
some of what you pay to buy *other* things ends up paying for many channels
you never see!

JIm

Codger

2024-05-19 10:30:13 UTC

Post by alan_m
Don't forget that the BBC is on Freeview and even if received over the
air that isn't free!

And of course you need the license to watch *any* channel via "Freeview".
Whereas even if you have no TV and hence don't need to pay for a license,
some of what you pay to buy *other* things ends up paying for many channels
you never see!
JIm

And as TalkTV is no longer available to watch over the air then presumably no TV licence is needed
to watch it now!

2024-05-20 17:52:33 UTC

Post by alan_m
Don't forget that the BBC is on Freeview and even if received over the
air that isn't free!

And of course you need the license to watch *any* channel via "Freeview".
Whereas even if you have no TV and hence don't need to pay for a license,
some of what you pay to buy *other* things ends up paying for many channels
you never see!
JIm

And as TalkTV is no longer available to watch over the air then presumably
no TV licence is needed
to watch it now!

What *is* the law now about "receiving" (watching/recording) TV channels
that are received by internet rather than terrestrial/satellite broadcast?
BBC iPlayer contains wording about "you need a TV licence to watch
programmes by iPlayer" and hence via the internet. I presume that is a true
statement. They could be pleading the Mandy Rice-Davies - "well, they
*would* say that, wouldn't they" because they have a vested interest in
people paying their TV licence.

What is the exact situation about people in caravans and on boats who also
have a TV licence for their home but who want to watch TV while they are
touring on holiday? Do they need a second licence or is that covered as an
extension of the home licence on the basis that if someone is on holiday
they are not using their TV at home? I've never investigated because the
need has never arisen. When you receive BBC channels by internet away from
your licensed home address - maybe even outside UK jurisdiction if at sea -
then that's a weird one.

I would hope the law is sensible and that it covers you for short-term usage
away from home as long as you are paying for a licence at home. But I
wonder...

What is the licensing situation for hotels, and for holiday chalets on a
camp? Are they charged the full domestic price per room/chalet, or is there
a a reduced rate (probably still priced per room) when it is a block
booking. What about a communal TV for people who live in a student house
with lockable bedroom doors (and no TVs in those bedrooms). Is that just
regarded as a private household with one licence that maybe everyone shares
the cost of? I imagine the lockable bedroom doors means a licence doesn't
cover TVs in each bedroom within the same house. Again - never needs to
investigate. When I lived in a large hall of residence, many people had
their own (usually B&W) TVs and didn't have their own licence, expecting to
be covered by their parents' licences (which almost certainly *wasn't* the
case!). And what about a TV that is capable of receiving broadcasts but
which is only ever used as a monitor for a computer with RF output (ZX81
etc)? "Of course that's all I use it for, honest guv, I never watch TV on
it" ;-) I am reminded of the bastard TV licence guy from hell on The Young
Ones, played by Roger Sloman who has cornered the market in slimy officials
;-) "You've *eaten* the TV. That old story. I can wait, lad. I can wait..."

Codger

2024-05-21 06:48:37 UTC

Post by NY

Post by alan_m
Don't forget that the BBC is on Freeview and even if received over the
air that isn't free!

And of course you need the license to watch *any* channel via "Freeview".
Whereas even if you have no TV and hence don't need to pay for a license,
some of what you pay to buy *other* things ends up paying for many channels
you never see!
JIm

And as TalkTV is no longer available to watch over the air then presumably
no TV licence is needed
to watch it now!

What *is* the law now about "receiving" (watching/recording) TV channels
that are received by internet rather than terrestrial/satellite broadcast?
BBC iPlayer contains wording about "you need a TV licence to watch
programmes by iPlayer" and hence via the internet. I presume that is a true
statement. They could be pleading the Mandy Rice-Davies - "well, they
*would* say that, wouldn't they" because they have a vested interest in
people paying their TV licence.
What is the exact situation about people in caravans and on boats who also
have a TV licence for their home but who want to watch TV while they are
touring on holiday? Do they need a second licence or is that covered as an
extension of the home licence on the basis that if someone is on holiday
they are not using their TV at home? I've never investigated because the
need has never arisen. When you receive BBC channels by internet away from
your licensed home address - maybe even outside UK jurisdiction if at sea -
then that's a weird one.
I would hope the law is sensible and that it covers you for short-term usage
away from home as long as you are paying for a licence at home. But I
wonder...
What is the licensing situation for hotels, and for holiday chalets on a
camp? Are they charged the full domestic price per room/chalet, or is there
a a reduced rate (probably still priced per room) when it is a block
booking. What about a communal TV for people who live in a student house
with lockable bedroom doors (and no TVs in those bedrooms). Is that just
regarded as a private household with one licence that maybe everyone shares
the cost of? I imagine the lockable bedroom doors means a licence doesn't
cover TVs in each bedroom within the same house. Again - never needs to
investigate. When I lived in a large hall of residence, many people had
their own (usually B&W) TVs and didn't have their own licence, expecting to
be covered by their parents' licences (which almost certainly *wasn't* the
case!). And what about a TV that is capable of receiving broadcasts but
which is only ever used as a monitor for a computer with RF output (ZX81
etc)? "Of course that's all I use it for, honest guv, I never watch TV on
it" ;-) I am reminded of the bastard TV licence guy from hell on The Young
Ones, played by Roger Sloman who has cornered the market in slimy officials
;-) "You've *eaten* the TV. That old story. I can wait, lad. I can wait..."

Very useful resource - https://www.tvlicencestop.co.uk/

Roderick Stewart

2024-05-21 08:45:48 UTC

Post by NY
What *is* the law now about "receiving" (watching/recording) TV channels
that are received by internet rather than terrestrial/satellite broadcast?

The rule is that catchup services do not need a licence, but 'live'
services do, i.e. services that are showing programmes simultaneously
with one of the conventional broadcasting services.

(Personally I think it's unhelpful to use the word 'live' here, even
though the licensing people define what they mean by it, because it
used to mean something quite different and some people might still
assume its original meaning).

Post by NY
BBC iPlayer contains wording about "you need a TV licence to watch
programmes by iPlayer" and hence via the internet.

You need a licence to watch *anything* on iPlayer, catchup or live.
It's the single exception amongst internet streaming services. For the
rest of the internet, catchup or on-demand services do not need one.

Rod.

Codger

2024-05-29 09:20:48 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by NY
What *is* the law now about "receiving" (watching/recording) TV channels
that are received by internet rather than terrestrial/satellite broadcast?

The rule is that catchup services do not need a licence, but 'live'
services do, i.e. services that are showing programmes simultaneously
with one of the conventional broadcasting services.
(Personally I think it's unhelpful to use the word 'live' here, even
though the licensing people define what they mean by it, because it
used to mean something quite different and some people might still
assume its original meaning).

Post by NY
BBC iPlayer contains wording about "you need a TV licence to watch
programmes by iPlayer" and hence via the internet.

The law says specifically you need a TV licence to watch BBC iPlayer programmes over broadband, but
not AFAIK to watch S4C in a similar manner.

TalkTV is no longer broadcast channel despite it being listed as Freeview, since uses a broadband
connection, like watching a live stream from one of many Youtube channels, which do not require a
licence to watch as they are not being broadcast.

Andy Burns

2024-05-29 09:23:52 UTC

Post by Codger
TalkTV is no longer broadcast channel despite it being listed as Freeview, since uses a broadband
connection, like watching a live stream from one of many Youtube channels, which do not require a
licence to watch as they are not being broadcast.

Is it the audio of TalkTV that is broadcast as "Talk" on DAB?

Codger

2024-05-29 09:31:05 UTC

Is it the audio of TalkTV that is broadcast as "Talk" on DAB?

Correct.

Charlie+

2024-05-30 09:00:31 UTC

Is it the audio of TalkTV that is broadcast as "Talk" on DAB?

Correct.

Just done a rescan on my DAB radio... no sign of "Talk" only tkSPORT. C+
(W.Sussex)

Andy Burns

2024-05-30 09:06:03 UTC

Post by Charlie+

Post by Andy Burns
Is it the audio of TalkTV that is broadcast as "Talk" on DAB?

Correct.

Just done a rescan on my DAB radio... no sign of "Talk" only tkSPORT.

I only happened to notice it the other day in the full station list in
my car (DAB+) it might have been there for some time, usually I just use
the saved presets.

Codger

2024-05-30 20:15:41 UTC

Is it the audio of TalkTV that is broadcast as "Talk" on DAB?

Correct.

Just done a rescan on my DAB radio... no sign of "Talk" only tkSPORT. C+
(W.Sussex)

I can get it on my radio, but it is DAB+.

Charlie+

2024-05-31 07:26:52 UTC

Is it the audio of TalkTV that is broadcast as "Talk" on DAB?

Correct.

Just done a rescan on my DAB radio... no sign of "Talk" only tkSPORT. C+
(W.Sussex)

I can get it on my radio, but it is DAB+.

Thanks, yes only my portable is DAB+ but I think the whip aerial is just
not man enough to collect all the stations - I may need a better
collection system from the loft.. For further investigation! C+

Andy Burns

2024-05-31 07:44:36 UTC

Post by Charlie+
my portable is DAB+ but I think the whip aerial is just
not man enough to collect all the stations

Are you missing all the services in this list?

<https://www.radiodns.uk/multiplexes/c1ce>

Charlie+

2024-06-02 07:49:36 UTC

Post by Charlie+
my portable is DAB+ but I think the whip aerial is just
not man enough to collect all the stations

Are you missing all the services in this list?
<https://www.radiodns.uk/multiplexes/c1ce>

Thanks Andy - yes by really trying hard I can 'just' detect all those
but only in one position in the living room and not at a power that will
allow any decoding/listening! Otherwise I get a much lower scan count of
the better signal quality stations. C+

Tweed

2024-06-02 08:14:49 UTC

Post by Charlie+

Post by Charlie+
my portable is DAB+ but I think the whip aerial is just
not man enough to collect all the stations

Are you missing all the services in this list?
<https://www.radiodns.uk/multiplexes/c1ce>

Thing is, there’s DAB and there’s DAB. By this I mean there is more than
class of transmitter network. The BBC and a few others use a decent network
of frequently geographically spaced low power transmitters. Then there’s a
commercial network that has fewer transmitters, mainly in areas of high
population. Times Radio uses the latter an it frequently drops out on my
car radio, even in a city, and you can forget about it in rural
Northumberland or Devon. By contrast, I hardly ever lose Radio4, even in a
city underpass.

Woody

2024-06-02 11:16:18 UTC

Post by Charlie+
my portable is DAB+ but I think the whip aerial is just
not man enough to collect all the stations

Are you missing all the services in this list?
<https://www.radiodns.uk/multiplexes/c1ce>

I have to advise you that what you say is largely incorrect, but it
would take ages to go through the reasons why. For example most BBC mux
sites are the highest power, albeit there are filler sites often at
lower power. D1 and D2 which are the national commercial muxes in most
cases are of similar radiated power to the BBC muxes.

One thing that should not be overlooked is that when DAB started it was
on frequencies that were still used in the RoI for television so
directional aerials were effectively mandatory and many of them are
still in place. With only a few exceptions the aerials were/are directed
East of the North-South line, i.e. 0-180degrees.

What I would suggest is that you get a copy of the Radio Listeners Guide
which gives you full data of every AM, FM, and DAB transmitter in the
UK. Also, as the direction of the transmitter aerials is not disclosed,
look at the DAB section of ukfree.tv which will give you a better idea
of the areas covered by any one site.

Tweed

2024-06-02 11:46:41 UTC

Post by Charlie+
my portable is DAB+ but I think the whip aerial is just
not man enough to collect all the stations

Are you missing all the services in this list?
<https://www.radiodns.uk/multiplexes/c1ce>

I have to advise you that what you say is largely incorrect, but it
would take ages to go through the reasons why. For example most BBC mux
sites are the highest power, albeit there are filler sites often at
lower power. D1 and D2 which are the national commercial muxes in most
cases are of similar radiated power to the BBC muxes.
One thing that should not be overlooked is that when DAB started it was
on frequencies that were still used in the RoI for television so
directional aerials were effectively mandatory and many of them are
still in place. With only a few exceptions the aerials were/are directed
East of the North-South line, i.e. 0-180degrees.
What I would suggest is that you get a copy of the Radio Listeners Guide
which gives you full data of every AM, FM, and DAB transmitter in the
UK. Also, as the direction of the transmitter aerials is not disclosed,
look at the DAB section of ukfree.tv which will give you a better idea
of the areas covered by any one site.

I don’t think I’m wrong. Times Radio uses the SDL MUX which has far fewer
transmitters than the BBC.

The maps referenced in the links below show how poor SDL is.

BBC 416 transmitters. https://www.radiodns.uk/multiplexes/ce15
Digital One 221 transmitters https://www.radiodns.uk/multiplexes/c181
SDL 75 transmitters https://www.radiodns.uk/multiplexes/c1ce

DAB is designed to take advantage of receiving signals from more than one
transmitter as long as the time of flight of the signal is not too large.
Thus lots of lower power transmitters evenly spread is optimal. The BBC
have done it properly.

It is the half baked commercial MUXes that give DAB a poor reputation for
coverage.

Mark Carver

2024-06-02 17:17:24 UTC

Post by Woody
I have to advise you that what you say is largely incorrect, but it
would take ages to go through the reasons why. For example most BBC mux
sites are the highest power, albeit there are filler sites often at
lower power. D1 and D2 which are the national commercial muxes in most
cases are of similar radiated power to the BBC muxes.
One thing that should not be overlooked is that when DAB started it was
on frequencies that were still used in the RoI for television so
directional aerials were effectively mandatory and many of them are
still in place. With only a few exceptions the aerials were/are directed
East of the North-South line, i.e. 0-180degrees.
What I would suggest is that you get a copy of the Radio Listeners Guide
which gives you full data of every AM, FM, and DAB transmitter in the
UK. Also, as the direction of the transmitter aerials is not disclosed,
look at the DAB section of ukfree.tv which will give you a better idea
of the areas covered by any one site.

Ofcom Tech Parameters spread sheet gives full details (including
directional characteristics) in 10 deg increments for every DAB (and MF,
and FM) transmitter, BBC and non BBC.

I can't be bothered to correct some of the bollocks you've written above,

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/spectrum/information/radio-tech-parameters

2024-06-02 20:02:45 UTC

Post by Charlie+
my portable is DAB+ but I think the whip aerial is just
not man enough to collect all the stations

Are you missing all the services in this list?
<https://www.radiodns.uk/multiplexes/c1ce>

I have to advise you that what you say is largely incorrect, but it
would take ages to go through the reasons why. For example most BBC mux
sites are the highest power, albeit there are filler sites often at
lower power. D1 and D2 which are the national commercial muxes in most
cases are of similar radiated power to the BBC muxes.
One thing that should not be overlooked is that when DAB started it was
on frequencies that were still used in the RoI for television so
directional aerials were effectively mandatory and many of them are
still in place. With only a few exceptions the aerials were/are directed
East of the North-South line, i.e. 0-180degrees.
What I would suggest is that you get a copy of the Radio Listeners Guide
which gives you full data of every AM, FM, and DAB transmitter in the
UK. Also, as the direction of the transmitter aerials is not disclosed,
look at the DAB section of ukfree.tv which will give you a better idea
of the areas covered by any one site.

download OFCOM's txparams file.... it has all the dB vs 0 to 330 in 30
degree intervals for the DAB transmitter, its then easy to generate the
polar plots for each ensemble transmitted.

Andy Burns

2024-06-02 16:27:48 UTC

The BBC and a few others use a decent network of frequently
geographically spaced low power transmitters. Then there’s a
commercial network that has fewer transmitters, mainly in areas of
high population. Times Radio uses the latter an it frequently drops
out on my car radio, even in a city

The only times I have problems with Times Radio et.al. is when passing
close to one of the "decent low power transmitters" and get co-channel
interference .

Tweed

2024-06-02 16:48:44 UTC

The only times I have problems with Times Radio et.al. is when passing
close to one of the "decent low power transmitters" and get co-channel
interference ...

David Paste

2024-05-28 19:56:00 UTC

Post by Jim Lesurf
And of course you need the license

Licence

Post by Jim Lesurf
to watch *any* channel via
"Freeview".
Whereas even if you have no TV and hence don't need to pay for a
license,

Licence

;)

Roderick Stewart

2024-05-29 08:47:13 UTC

On Tue, 28 May 2024 19:56:00 -0000 (UTC), David Paste

Post by David Paste

Post by Jim Lesurf
And of course you need the license

Licence

Post by Jim Lesurf
to watch *any* channel via
"Freeview".
Whereas even if you have no TV and hence don't need to pay for a
license,

Licence
;)

Unless you're watching in color of course.

(Because you wouldn't be in the UK).

Rod.

David Paste

2024-05-29 19:32:02 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart
Unless you're watching in color of course.

Oof!

I'm a tedious person and annoyed with the word licence. There's absolutely
no reason for the "license" version to exist at all. I suspect it's like
tyre/tire... someone had "a good idea" (but they were mistaken).

The Other John

2024-05-29 21:18:43 UTC

Post by David Paste
I'm a tedious person and annoyed with the word licence. There's
absolutely no reason for the "license" version to exist at all. I
suspect it's like tyre/tire... someone had "a good idea" (but they were
mistaken).

In British English licence is a noun and license is a verb. The Merkins
just use the latter for both.

--
TOJ.

David Paste

2024-05-29 22:33:02 UTC

Post by The Other John
In British English licence is a noun and license is a verb. The Merkins
just use the latter for both.

Yeah, that's right. I'd ditch the S option.

Roderick Stewart

2024-05-30 08:54:13 UTC

On Wed, 29 May 2024 21:18:43 -0000 (UTC), The Other John

In British English licence is a noun and license is a verb. The Merkins
just use the latter for both.

They do a similar thing with "alternate" which they use as an
alternative to "alternative".

Rod.

2024-05-30 08:57:31 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Wed, 29 May 2024 21:18:43 -0000 (UTC), The Other John

In British English licence is a noun and license is a verb. The Merkins
just use the latter for both.

They do a similar thing with "alternate" which they use as an
alternative to "alternative".

And they change the meaning of "momentarily" completely: they use it to
mean "*in* a moment - soon" rather than "*for* a moment - briefly,
transiently".

And as for "fanny"... ;-)

Spike

2024-05-30 10:09:22 UTC

Post by NY

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Wed, 29 May 2024 21:18:43 -0000 (UTC), The Other John

In British English licence is a noun and license is a verb. The Merkins
just use the latter for both.

They do a similar thing with "alternate" which they use as an
alternative to "alternative".

And they change the meaning of "momentarily" completely: they use it to
mean "*in* a moment - soon" rather than "*for* a moment - briefly,
transiently".
And as for "fanny"... ;-)

Whenever I did a presentation in America, I used to clarify terms thusly:
….rubbers(UK)/elastomers(US)….

They all took it in good part.

--
Spike

2024-05-30 10:34:27 UTC

Post by Spike

Post by NY
And as for "fanny"... ;-)

….rubbers(UK)/elastomers(US)….

Isn't "thus" already an adverb, making the "ly" suffix redundant? ;-)

Actually, dictionary.com does list "thusly" as a synonym of "thus",
describing them both as adverbs. Never knew that "thusly" was a real word...

The Other John

2024-05-30 11:39:41 UTC

Post by NY
Isn't "thus" already an adverb, making the "ly" suffix redundant? ;-)

Similarly "over" can be an adverb but the Yanks insist on "overly".
Actually my dictionary says 'overly' is Scottish!

--
TOJ.

2024-05-30 19:02:47 UTC

Post by NY
Isn't "thus" already an adverb, making the "ly" suffix redundant? ;-)

Similarly "over" can be an adverb but the Yanks insist on "overly".
Actually my dictionary says 'overly' is Scottish!

I imagine many/all variants of English have idiosyncrasies that sound
odd to someone from another English-speaking region.

As an English (as opposed to Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish) speaker of
English, the three "funnies" with Scottish English are:

- The use of "without" in the sense of "outside" (a boundary); to me,
"without" has only one meaning "lacking". As a child I could never
understand the lyrics "There is a green hill far away / Without a city a
wall" because I couldn't understand why anyone would expect that a green
hill *might* have a city wall and therefore for it to be noteworthy if
this one didn't have a wall. (*)

- The use of "messages" to mean "errands" or "shopping". To me, a
"message" is a written or spoken communication, sent by post, email,
word-of-mouth etc.

- The use of "absent" as a preposition, to mean "in the absence of" -
"absent instructions to the contrary, I will come to see you tomorrow".

But I accept that these are standard usage in Scottish English, and
maybe archaic usage in other English-speaking countries.

(*) Was "without"="outside" regarded as normal English usage when Cecil
Frances Alexander wrote the hymn in 1848? "Outside" would still have
scanned and would have been less ambiguous. I hadn't realised till just
now that Cecil was a woman, but then I once met a woman called Sidney; I
tend to think of both names as exclusively male names.

John Armstrong

2024-05-31 08:14:49 UTC

On 30/05/2024 20:02, NY wrote:

As a Scottish speaker of English for some 73 summers, may I please comment?

Post by NY
As an English (as opposed to Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish) speaker of
- The use of "without" in the sense of "outside" (a boundary); to me,
"without" has only one meaning "lacking". As a child I could never
understand the lyrics "There is a green hill far away / Without a city a
wall" because I couldn't understand why anyone would expect that a green
hill *might* have a city wall and therefore for it to be noteworthy if
this one didn't have a wall. (*)

Agreed.

Post by NY
- The use of "messages" to mean "errands" or "shopping". To me, a
"message" is a written or spoken communication, sent by post, email,
word-of-mouth etc.

Agreed. "I've to go the messages" was frequently heard when a child
couldn't come out to play, and is still used today, even when shopping
is done by car!

Post by NY
- The use of "absent" as a preposition, to mean "in the absence of" -
"absent instructions to the contrary, I will come to see you tomorrow".

I can honestly say I have never heard this, and I have lived in many
parts of the country. I would say "without instructions..." or "unless I
hear..."

Post by NY
But I accept that these are standard usage in Scottish English, and
maybe archaic usage in other English-speaking countries.
(*) Was "without"="outside" regarded as normal English usage when Cecil
Frances Alexander wrote the hymn in 1848? "Outside" would still have
scanned and would have been less ambiguous. I hadn't realised till just
now that Cecil was a woman, but then I once met a woman called Sidney; I
tend to think of both names as exclusively male names.

She was, and I don't think she was a very nice one. She also wrote the
hymn "All things bright and beautiful", including this verse, no longer
sung.

"The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate."

Fine words for the wife of an English bishop living in Ireland at the
time of the Irish famine.

Roger

2024-05-31 13:56:19 UTC

"Without" may not be Scottish.

Here in London, around the old city, you will find "within" and
"without" have been used for churches, wards, parishes. For
example: St Martin within Ludgate, St Botolph without Aldgate,
St Botolph without Aldersgate. (Ludgate was in the western wall,
Aldgate was in the eastern wall, Aldersgate in the northern
wall. There were other gates as well.)

Here is a City of London ward map from 1870. You will see
Farringdon, Aldersgate, Cripplegate, and Bishopsgate had areas
both within and without.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:City_of_London_Ward_Map,_1870.svg

--
Roger

Andy Burns

2024-05-31 14:07:56 UTC

Post by NY
As an English (as opposed to Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish) speaker of
- The use of "without" in the sense of "outside"

"Without" may not be Scottish.

I'd have said "outwith" was more a scottish turn of phrase?

Ian Jackson

2024-05-31 21:32:25 UTC

Post by NY
As an English (as opposed to Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish) speaker
- The use of "without" in the sense of "outside"

"Without" may not be Scottish.

I'd have said "outwith" was more a scottish turn of phrase?

'Without' (as pertaining to the 'city walls') is now definitely archaic,
and never heard. However, the Scots use of 'outwith' seems to fairly
common these days. It's obviously not new - but maybe it's a
resurrection?

--
Ian
Aims and ambitions are neither attainments nor achievements

JMB99

2024-06-01 18:36:38 UTC

Post by Andy Burns
I'd have said "outwith" was more a scottish turn of phrase?

OED

Goes back quite a long way.

c1175

Ȝho wat þatt ut wiþþ crisstenn dom Niss nohht tatt crist maȝȝ cwemenn.

Ormulum (Burchfield transcript) l. 13116
c1225 (?c1200)

Þe king..bihefden hire utewið þe barren of þe burhe.

St. Katherine (1973) 2316 (Middle English Dictionary)

There is a lot of overlap between North of England English and Scottish
dialect.

Woody

2024-05-31 15:32:11 UTC

"Without" may not be Scottish.
Here in London, around the old city, you will find "within" and
"without" have been used for churches, wards, parishes. For
example: St Martin within Ludgate, St Botolph without Aldgate,
St Botolph without Aldersgate. (Ludgate was in the western wall,
Aldgate was in the eastern wall, Aldersgate in the northern
wall. There were other gates as well.)
Here is a City of London ward map from 1870. You will see
Farringdon, Aldersgate, Cripplegate, and Bishopsgate had areas
both within and without.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:City_of_London_Ward_Map,_1870.svg

Also of interest the same nomenclature is used in Beverley, E Yorks.

Mr Guest

2024-05-31 22:54:53 UTC

Woody wrote (apparently) in uk.tech.digital-tv on Fri 31 May 2024

Post by NY
As an English (as opposed to Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish) speaker of
- The use of "without" in the sense of "outside" (a boundary); to me,
"without" has only one meaning "lacking". As a child I could never
understand the lyrics "There is a green hill far away / Without a city
a wall" because I couldn't understand why anyone would expect that a
green hill *might* have a city wall and therefore for it to be
noteworthy if this one didn't have a wall. (*)

"Without" may not be Scottish.
Here in London, around the old city, you will find "within" and
"without" have been used for churches, wards, parishes. For
example: St Martin within Ludgate, St Botolph without Aldgate,
St Botolph without Aldersgate. (Ludgate was in the western wall,
Aldgate was in the eastern wall, Aldersgate in the northern
wall. There were other gates as well.)
Here is a City of London ward map from 1870. You will see
Farringdon, Aldersgate, Cripplegate, and Bishopsgate had areas
both within and without.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:City_of_London_Ward_Map,_1870.svg

Also of interest the same nomenclature is used in Beverley, E Yorks.

There's Clifton Without on the A19 going into York as well.

--
Mr Guest
Always, seemingly, on the road to nowhere

Ian Jackson

2024-06-01 15:08:21 UTC

Post by Mr Guest
Woody wrote (apparently) in uk.tech.digital-tv on Fri 31 May 2024

Post by NY
As an English (as opposed to Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish) speaker of
- The use of "without" in the sense of "outside" (a boundary); to me,
"without" has only one meaning "lacking". As a child I could never
understand the lyrics "There is a green hill far away / Without a city
a wall" because I couldn't understand why anyone would expect that a
green hill *might* have a city wall and therefore for it to be
noteworthy if this one didn't have a wall. (*)

"Without" may not be Scottish.
Here in London, around the old city, you will find "within" and
"without" have been used for churches, wards, parishes. For
example: St Martin within Ludgate, St Botolph without Aldgate,
St Botolph without Aldersgate. (Ludgate was in the western wall,
Aldgate was in the eastern wall, Aldersgate in the northern
wall. There were other gates as well.)
Here is a City of London ward map from 1870. You will see
Farringdon, Aldersgate, Cripplegate, and Bishopsgate had areas
both within and without.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:City_of_London_Ward_Map,_1870.svg

Also of interest the same nomenclature is used in Beverley, E Yorks.

There's Clifton Without on the A19 going into York as well.

It's probably fairly common in old towns (often denoting inside and
outside the town/city walls of boundaries). Alnwick, in Northumberland,
has a Bondgate Within, and a Bondgate Without,

--
Ian
Aims and ambitions are neither attainments nor achievements

charles

2024-05-31 15:45:05 UTC

"Without" may not be Scottish.

But "Outwith" probably is.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Jim Lesurf

2024-05-17 14:00:04 UTC