Green screen again (Humax PVR)

[Another John]

Long story short: I asked in June about the problems of our Humax
HDR-Fox T2, 5 years old, green-screening.

I received several useful suggestions, and indeed I found much
discussion elsewhere, via Google.

In short: nothing seems to fix it, nor does there seem to be any
definite pattern

So: should I replace the TV (Sony Bravia, 2011), or the PVR? (I
already tried swapping the HDMI cable with that off another device).

Extremely frustrating. Wife uses the damn thing very heavily, and the
little amount of telly that I watch usually comes off the PVR.

Cheers
John

[Brian Gaff]

So to recap, this is where its actually working, or appears to be but the
set sometimes will not see the pvr and just gives a blank green screen as
if nothing is there, was that the original issue?
I can only say that the only way to find the culprit is to either swap the
pvr onto another tv and see what happens, or vice versa.

I have to say auto detecting these days seems far worse than when we used
Scart!
Brian
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Post by Another John
Long story short: I asked in June about the problems of our Humax
HDR-Fox T2, 5 years old, green-screening.
I received several useful suggestions, and indeed I found much
discussion elsewhere, via Google.
In short: nothing seems to fix it, nor does there seem to be any
definite pattern
So: should I replace the TV (Sony Bravia, 2011), or the PVR? (I
already tried swapping the HDMI cable with that off another device).
Extremely frustrating. Wife uses the damn thing very heavily, and the
little amount of telly that I watch usually comes off the PVR.
Cheers
John

[Another John]

Post by Brian Gaff
So to recap, this is where its actually working, or appears to be but the
set sometimes will not see the pvr and just gives a blank green screen as
if nothing is there, was that the original issue?

Thanks Brian, Yes, that is the problem: everything works, but they
sometimes don't talk to each other. Then later (10, 20, 60 minute maybe
they will!

Post by Brian Gaff
I can only say that the only way to find the culprit is to either swap the
pvr onto another tv and see what happens, or vice versa.

Now I remember that that was one of the (many) suggested tests ... and I
haven't tried it yet! Will do so.

I wouldn't care, but I only watch about 6 hours TV a week. If I watched
more, I wouldn't _mind_ devoting my precious time to trying to fix this
problem! OTOH, my wife watches about 6 hours per day ...

Cheers
John

[Brian Gaff]

Yes well I seldom bother with TV these days, full of reality, or what is
supposed to be reality, shows, and repeats and general dross. Have we run
out of ideas?

I'll probably watch Dr Who on catch up tomorrow, but looking through the
guides, we used to have good science on Horizon, but increasingly its large
brush strokes trendy production and low on hard facts.
Brian
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Post by Another John

Post by Brian Gaff
So to recap, this is where its actually working, or appears to be but the
set sometimes will not see the pvr and just gives a blank green screen as
if nothing is there, was that the original issue?

Thanks Brian, Yes, that is the problem: everything works, but they
sometimes don't talk to each other. Then later (10, 20, 60 minute maybe
they will!

Post by Brian Gaff
I can only say that the only way to find the culprit is to either swap the
pvr onto another tv and see what happens, or vice versa.

Now I remember that that was one of the (many) suggested tests ... and I
haven't tried it yet! Will do so.
I wouldn't care, but I only watch about 6 hours TV a week. If I watched
more, I wouldn't _mind_ devoting my precious time to trying to fix this
problem! OTOH, my wife watches about 6 hours per day ...
Cheers
John

[Alan White]

Post by Another John
In short: nothing seems to fix it, nor does there seem to be any
definite pattern

We had this back in 2011 with a Bravia. The set doesn't 'handshake' with
the HDMI port hence the green screen. The local Sony Service Centre
offered a firmware upgrade but we bought a new set anyway with no
further problems.

[Roger Mills]

Post by Another John
Long story short: I asked in June about the problems of our Humax
HDR-Fox T2, 5 years old, green-screening.
I received several useful suggestions, and indeed I found much
discussion elsewhere, via Google.
In short: nothing seems to fix it, nor does there seem to be any
definite pattern
So: should I replace the TV (Sony Bravia, 2011), or the PVR? (I
already tried swapping the HDMI cable with that off another device).
Extremely frustrating. Wife uses the damn thing very heavily, and the
little amount of telly that I watch usually comes off the PVR.
Cheers
John

We used to get it a lot when our HDR-Fox T2 was connected to a fairly
elderly Philips TV.

We were using the Humax remote to control both devices, and the problem
mainly occurred if we accidentally sent a command to the TV which was
meant for the Humax, because we hadn't pressed the PVR button. In
particular, the TV got confused with P+ and P- commands when its input
was via an HDMI port. It took it as a command to change inputs rather
than programme.

Could this possibly be happening to you? If so, try taping up the TV
button on the Humax remote, and use the TV's own remote to control it.

We've now got a Samsung smart TV, and don't record as much because it's
easier to watch catch-up for most things. Also the Samsung has an HD
tuner (which the Philips didn't) so there's no need to watch the TV via
the Humax in order to get HD.

Testing with a different TV may not be conclusive, because different TVs
may react differently to being mis-directed if that is what's happening.

In the past, when we *did* have the problem, the only solution often
seemed to be to power off both devices completely, and start from
scratch. Is that what you find?

[Another John]

OP here: thanks once again for the useful 'food for thought' chaps.
Roger -- we always use the two remotes, so your particular theory
doesn't apply; also, powering off both devices does sometimes work ...
but sometimes does not!

If I ever get it sorted, I'll report back!

John

[Brian Gaff]

That handshaking issue sounds the most plausible to me.
hdmi seems a bit of a black art as it is software driven, unlike the old
analogue hardware system.
Brian
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Post by Another John
OP here: thanks once again for the useful 'food for thought' chaps.
Roger -- we always use the two remotes, so your particular theory
doesn't apply; also, powering off both devices does sometimes work ...
but sometimes does not!
If I ever get it sorted, I'll report back!
John

[Martin]

Post by Brian Gaff
That handshaking issue sounds the most plausible to me.
hdmi seems a bit of a black art as it is software driven, unlike the old
analogue hardware system.

We have two Humax PVRs. Every problem we have had so far has been caused by the
PVR. The cooling in Humax PVRs is inadequate

[b***@cylonhq.com]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 16:50:48 +0200

Post by Martin

Post by Brian Gaff
That handshaking issue sounds the most plausible to me.
hdmi seems a bit of a black art as it is software driven, unlike the old
analogue hardware system.

We have two Humax PVRs. Every problem we have had so far has been caused by the
PVR. The cooling in Humax PVRs is inadequate

We've had 2 humax PVRs and both were buggy including sound problems with
HDMI. Seems Humax release these things as soon as the software runs for more
than 5 mins without crashing.

[Another John]

[Sorry - I've been away]

Post by Martin
We have two Humax PVRs. Every problem we have had so far has been caused by
the PVR. The cooling in Humax PVRs is inadequate
We've had 2 humax PVRs and both were buggy including sound problems with
HDMI. Seems Humax release these things as soon as the software runs for more
than 5 mins without crashing.

Would either of you (or anyone else) recommend any other particular
make? (When I first bought a Humax, it was because most users swore by
them (i.e., not at them).

Cheers
John

[PeterC]

Post by Another John
[Sorry - I've been away]

Post by Martin
We have two Humax PVRs. Every problem we have had so far has been caused by
the PVR. The cooling in Humax PVRs is inadequate
We've had 2 humax PVRs and both were buggy including sound problems with
HDMI. Seems Humax release these things as soon as the software runs for more
than 5 mins without crashing.

Would either of you (or anyone else) recommend any other particular
make? (When I first bought a Humax, it was because most users swore by
them (i.e., not at them).
Cheers
John

You don't say terrestrial or satellite. For my next one I'm considering one
from
https://www.world-of-satellite.co.uk/satellite-and-terrestrial/digital-receivers

There are upscaling ones (although apparently not too good if not feeding to
a 4k TV) and the tuners can be mixed. Can also record more than 2 channels
at once.
Some of the controllers look a bit naff - and, until I can be bothered to
seek for the instructions, the operation might be 'linuxy'.

[alan_m]

Post by PeterC

John

You don't say terrestrial or satellite. For my next one I'm considering one
from
https://www.world-of-satellite.co.uk/satellite-and-terrestrial/digital-receivers
There are upscaling ones (although apparently not too good if not feeding to
a 4k TV) and the tuners can be mixed. Can also record more than 2 channels
at once.

I've seen no reports of poor upscaling from these boxes in the couple of
years I've been reading the Openvix forums which relate to these boxes
and the software that runs on them.

Depending on the number of tuners and the MUX/transponder tuned into
it's possible to record 8 or more channels at once as well as playing
back a recording at the same time.

Post by PeterC
Some of the controllers look a bit naff - and, until I can be bothered to
seek for the instructions, the operation might be 'linuxy'.

On the Enigma 2 receivers/PVRs from World of Satellite (WOS) you run
third party images (software) such as Openvix which gives you the GUI.
You don't need to know anything about Linux. WOS will install the image
when you purchase the box from them and it's easy to change if required.

OpenVix guides
http://www.openvix.co.uk/index.php/guides-and-tutorials/


A youtube video which shows some of the Openvix features.
Note this 30 minute video is years old, it contains some minor mistakes,
some incorrect assumptions and relates to a box no longer sold. It does
however give some idea about how the current version of OpenVix still
works. OpenVix has evolved since this video was made.

Mistakes in above video
i) the image allows skipping/jumping backwards and forwards through
recordings or timeshift by fixed (user configured) amounts.
ii) No series linking using the relevant CRID information but recording
a series is easily achievable using autotimer options.

These boxes don't do red button interactive services although the red
button channel with its 7 day epg can be treated the same as any other
channel with respect.

[alan_m]

Post by alan_m
7 day epg can be treated the same as any other
channel with respect.

...... to watching or recording

[PeterC]

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC

John

You don't say terrestrial or satellite. For my next one I'm considering one
from
https://www.world-of-satellite.co.uk/satellite-and-terrestrial/digital-receivers
There are upscaling ones (although apparently not too good if not feeding to
a 4k TV) and the tuners can be mixed. Can also record more than 2 channels
at once.

I've seen no reports of poor upscaling from these boxes in the couple of
years I've been reading the Openvix forums which relate to these boxes
and the software that runs on them.

Can't remember where I saw it, but it was a forum: apparently the upscaling
from SD to 4k is worse on a HD TV than just having SD.
By the way, I'd recorded an old episode of Midsomer Murders that was
broadcast on ITV HD. At the start there was "Upscaled HD"; methinks it was
upscaled HD!
I looked at some boxes on WoS and couldn't see any that upscaled - possibly
not stocked now.

Post by alan_m
Depending on the number of tuners and the MUX/transponder tuned into
it's possible to record 8 or more channels at once as well as playing
back a recording at the same time.
There are S2X tuners now, on that site.

Post by PeterC
Some of the controllers look a bit naff - and, until I can be bothered to
seek for the instructions, the operation might be 'linuxy'.

On the Enigma 2 receivers/PVRs from World of Satellite (WOS) you run
third party images (software) such as Openvix which gives you the GUI.
You don't need to know anything about Linux. WOS will install the image
when you purchase the box from them and it's easy to change if required.
OpenVix guides
http://www.openvix.co.uk/index.php/guides-and-tutorials/

Thanks for the link, I'll have a read.

Post by alan_m
A youtube video which shows some of the Openvix features.
Note this 30 minute video is years old, it contains some minor mistakes,
some incorrect assumptions and relates to a box no longer sold. It does
however give some idea about how the current version of OpenVix still
works. OpenVix has evolved since this video was made.
http://youtu.be/DMUwpe2IO0c
http://youtu.be/ijWJ8qXt_ek
Mistakes in above video
i) the image allows skipping/jumping backwards and forwards through
recordings or timeshift by fixed (user configured) amounts.
ii) No series linking using the relevant CRID information but recording
a series is easily achievable using autotimer options.
These boxes don't do red button interactive services although the red
button channel with its 7 day epg can be treated the same as any other
channel with respect.

Pity about the lack of series linking - it's very useful.

[alan_m]

Post by PeterC
Pity about the lack of series linking - it's very useful.

I've owned two of these boxes in the last 4 years and have never
knowingly missed any episode in a series that I've wished to record.
The autotimer functionality performs the series linking without using
the broadcast CRID series linking data. Basically you ask the
box/software to set a repeating timer on the program name with a variety
of filter options. Usually the user configured default options are
sufficient allowing you just to select the program from the EPG with a
couple of button presses. Every time the program enters the EPG in the
future and matches the autotimer filters a new record timer is
generated. Filters include restricting to one channel, or multiple
channels the short description must being unique, restricting to certain
days or times (or on any day/time) etc.

Example of options
http://www.admac.myzen.co.uk/vix_timer/

The Youtube video link in my original post also shows this setting.

These boxes running Openvix (and other alternative images) also come
with a web interface. Just type the IP address of the box into your web
browser and most of the box's functionality can be set up on your
computer. It also contains a fully working virtual remote control.
The screenshots in the above link were obtained via this web interface.

[PeterC]

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC
Pity about the lack of series linking - it's very useful.

I've owned two of these boxes in the last 4 years and have never
knowingly missed any episode in a series that I've wished to record.
The autotimer functionality performs the series linking without using
the broadcast CRID series linking data. Basically you ask the
box/software to set a repeating timer on the program name with a variety
of filter options. Usually the user configured default options are
sufficient allowing you just to select the program from the EPG with a
couple of button presses. Every time the program enters the EPG in the
future and matches the autotimer filters a new record timer is
generated. Filters include restricting to one channel, or multiple
channels the short description must being unique, restricting to certain
days or times (or on any day/time) etc.
Example of options
http://www.admac.myzen.co.uk/vix_timer/
The Youtube video link in my original post also shows this setting.

The description might be better than the timing, as times are changed. Often
the schedule will adjust for these, although the Beeb suddenly changing from
BBC 1 to BBC 2, for examlpe, isn't linked - I've missed something that I've
wanted and ended up with a few hours of talking heads waffling on about
nothing happening!

Post by alan_m
These boxes running Openvix (and other alternative images) also come
with a web interface. Just type the IP address of the box into your web
browser and most of the box's functionality can be set up on your
computer. It also contains a fully working virtual remote control.
The screenshots in the above link were obtained via this web interface.

That's good. I have that on the Hummy's custom firmware.

Cheers.

[alan_m]

Post by PeterC
The description might be better than the timing, as times are changed. Often
the schedule will adjust for these, although the Beeb suddenly changing from
BBC 1 to BBC 2, for examlpe, isn't linked - I've missed something that I've
wanted and ended up with a few hours of talking heads waffling on about
nothing happening!

Series linking using the CRID data may also fail when programs change
channel at the last moment, It depends on how often the particular box
checks the EPG to see if a program matches the search criteria.

[NY]

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC
The description might be better than the timing, as times are changed. Often
the schedule will adjust for these, although the Beeb suddenly changing from
BBC 1 to BBC 2, for examlpe, isn't linked - I've missed something that I've
wanted and ended up with a few hours of talking heads waffling on about
nothing happening!

Series linking using the CRID data may also fail when programs change
channel at the last moment, It depends on how often the particular box
checks the EPG to see if a program matches the search criteria.

It also depends how often the EPG is updated by the broadcaster. Out of
interest, I looked at the over-the-air EPG (using VLC and a USB DVB decoder)
when BBC were playing pass-the-parcel with programmes during Wimbledon, and
almost always even after a programme had been bounced from one channel to
another or replaced with another programme, the EPG on the BBCA (*)
multiplex was still listing what was originally planned.

Software PVRs such as NextPVR and TVHeadend tend to update the EPG only once
a day (though the time and frequency of upgrades is configurable) at a time
when turning on a decoder for an EPG update won't clash with a scheduled
recording.


(*) I presume a mux operated by BBC is more likely to be up-to-date than any
other mux which has to be supplied with changes by the relevant broadcasters
of channels on a different mux.

[alan_m]

Post by PeterC
I looked at some boxes on WoS and couldn't see any that upscaled - possibly
not stocked now.

As far as I'm aware they all have the ability to upscale, if required.
Many user options including just output in the broadcast format and let
the TV do the scaling.

[alan_m]

Post by PeterC
Can't remember where I saw it, but it was a forum: apparently the upscaling
from SD to 4k is worse on a HD TV than just having SD.

But why would anyone upscale a SD image to 4K if if feeding a TV only
capable of HD, assuming a HD TV actually recognises a 4K UHD format? The
TV would have to downscale a 4K image hence there are 2 scaling changes
from a SD source to viewing output. Any sensible person would only
upscale to the native capability of their TV. Just because a box has the
capability to upscale to 4k it doesn't mean that you have to use this
facility.

[PeterC]

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC
Can't remember where I saw it, but it was a forum: apparently the upscaling
from SD to 4k is worse on a HD TV than just having SD.

But why would anyone upscale a SD image to 4K if if feeding a TV only
capable of HD, assuming a HD TV actually recognises a 4K UHD format? The
TV would have to downscale a 4K image hence there are 2 scaling changes
from a SD source to viewing output. Any sensible person would only
upscale to the native capability of their TV. Just because a box has the
capability to upscale to 4k it doesn't mean that you have to use this
facility.

Agreed. It's just that when I read it (might have been on AV Forums(?))
there was no mention of being able to choose.
The sensible options would be:
no change
upscale to HD
upscale to 4k
with the last being an option for HD as well.

Looking at some mid- to higher-end TVs, there's no mention of upscaling; I
have seen some reference in AVF.

[alan_m]

Post by PeterC

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC
Can't remember where I saw it, but it was a forum: apparently the upscaling
from SD to 4k is worse on a HD TV than just having SD.

But why would anyone upscale a SD image to 4K if if feeding a TV only
capable of HD, assuming a HD TV actually recognises a 4K UHD format? The
TV would have to downscale a 4K image hence there are 2 scaling changes
from a SD source to viewing output. Any sensible person would only
upscale to the native capability of their TV. Just because a box has the
capability to upscale to 4k it doesn't mean that you have to use this
facility.

Agreed. It's just that when I read it (might have been on AV Forums(?))
there was no mention of being able to choose.
no change
upscale to HD
upscale to 4k
with the last being an option for HD as well.
Looking at some mid- to higher-end TVs, there's no mention of upscaling; I
have seen some reference in AVF.

[alan_m]

Post by PeterC

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC
Can't remember where I saw it, but it was a forum: apparently the upscaling
from SD to 4k is worse on a HD TV than just having SD.

But why would anyone upscale a SD image to 4K if if feeding a TV only
capable of HD, assuming a HD TV actually recognises a 4K UHD format? The
TV would have to downscale a 4K image hence there are 2 scaling changes
from a SD source to viewing output. Any sensible person would only
upscale to the native capability of their TV. Just because a box has the
capability to upscale to 4k it doesn't mean that you have to use this
facility.

Agreed. It's just that when I read it (might have been on AV Forums(?))
there was no mention of being able to choose.
no change
upscale to HD
upscale to 4k
with the last being an option for HD as well.
Looking at some mid- to higher-end TVs, there's no mention of upscaling; I
have seen some reference in AVF.

[alan_m]

Post by PeterC
Agreed. It's just that when I read it (might have been on AV Forums(?))
there was no mention of being able to choose.
no change
upscale to HD
upscale to 4k
with the last being an option for HD as well.

On my Enigma 2 box (Not 4K UHD capable) I can disable the automatic
resolution setting and always output in either:
480i
480p
576i
576p
720p
1080i
1080p
@ 50Hz, 60Hz or multi.
with options how to display 4:3 content, such as just scale, pan and
scan, pillarbox or letterbox

If I enable automatic resolution the box tries to output in the
broadcast format for
All resolutions
Only HD
with further user configured options on how to display
480p @ 24Hz
576p @ 24Hz
720p @ 24Hz
1080p @ 24Hz
1080p @ 25Hz
1080p @ 30Hz

With automatic resolution set to "only HD" i get a further option on how
to output SD broadcasts.

This type of functionality allows any input format to be scaled to a TV
resolution or alternatively just to output the broadcast format and to
let the TV do the scaling

Post by PeterC
Looking at some mid- to higher-end TVs, there's no mention of upscaling; I
have seen some reference in AVF.

All TVs upscale a lower resolution to the resolution of the screen.
You wouldn't buy a TV if a SD broadcast only occupied a 1/16th of the
screen on a 4K capable TV.

[PeterC]

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC
Agreed. It's just that when I read it (might have been on AV Forums(?))
there was no mention of being able to choose.
no change
upscale to HD
upscale to 4k
with the last being an option for HD as well.

On my Enigma 2 box (Not 4K UHD capable) I can disable the automatic
480i
480p
576i
576p
720p
1080i
1080p
@ 50Hz, 60Hz or multi.
with options how to display 4:3 content, such as just scale, pan and
scan, pillarbox or letterbox
If I enable automatic resolution the box tries to output in the
broadcast format for
All resolutions
Only HD
with further user configured options on how to display
With automatic resolution set to "only HD" i get a further option on how
to output SD broadcasts.
This type of functionality allows any input format to be scaled to a TV
resolution or alternatively just to output the broadcast format and to
let the TV do the scaling

Ah, good - so long as it's selectable it's no problem.

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC
Looking at some mid- to higher-end TVs, there's no mention of upscaling; I
have seen some reference in AVF.

All TVs upscale a lower resolution to the resolution of the screen.
You wouldn't buy a TV if a SD broadcast only occupied a 1/16th of the
screen on a 4K capable TV.

My HD Panny should be able to, but even on DTTV that option's greyed out. I
use Freesat all the time and the Foxsat HDR's output is 1080i and it won't
upscale at all.

[alan_m]

Post by PeterC
My HD Panny should be able to, but even on DTTV that option's greyed out. I
use Freesat all the time and the Foxsat HDR's output is 1080i and it won't
upscale at all.

If the Foxsat set top box is outputting 1080i it has upscaled SD and
sends this to the TV. If your TV is HD then it cannot upscale anymore
because the input is already the maximum resolution of the TV. hence
greyed out options.

If you set your Foxsat to output 576i then you TV will upscale that
image to fill its screen and probably give you the additional options on
how to display 4:3 content on a 16:9 screen.

Up-scaling to 4K UHD will only be possible on more modern boxes/TVs
designed for 4K.

[PeterC]

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC
My HD Panny should be able to, but even on DTTV that option's greyed out. I
use Freesat all the time and the Foxsat HDR's output is 1080i and it won't
upscale at all.

If the Foxsat set top box is outputting 1080i it has upscaled SD and
sends this to the TV. If your TV is HD then it cannot upscale anymore
because the input is already the maximum resolution of the TV. hence
greyed out options.

Unfortunately, it's very obvious that the SD isn'y upscaled - some channels
are bad.

Post by alan_m
If you set your Foxsat to output 576i then you TV will upscale that
image to fill its screen and probably give you the additional options on
how to display 4:3 content on a 16:9 screen.
Up-scaling to 4K UHD will only be possible on more modern boxes/TVs
designed for 4K.

The TV is 1080p and I can't find the upscaling now! I've just tried using
the button for scaling on the Humax and it will make HD look poor but does
nothing for SD.

[alan_m]

Post by PeterC

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC
My HD Panny should be able to, but even on DTTV that option's greyed out. I
use Freesat all the time and the Foxsat HDR's output is 1080i and it won't
upscale at all.

If the Foxsat set top box is outputting 1080i it has upscaled SD and
sends this to the TV. If your TV is HD then it cannot upscale anymore
because the input is already the maximum resolution of the TV. hence
greyed out options.

Unfortunately, it's very obvious that the SD isn'y upscaled - some channels
are bad.

If the SD picture fills the screen on a HD TV then it has been up-scaled.

Some of the lesser channels broadcast with highly compressed data that
no matter what processing is performed at the receiving end the picture
will always look crap.

Crap in = crap out.

The worst I've seen recently was documentary film of WW2 possibly
previously been transferred to tape with many motion interlacing
problems and then highly low pass filtered in the transmission process.
Result: unwatchable.

Up-scaling isn't a process that makes a picture better - just bigger.
Some processing engines are better than others at achieving this.
Up-scalling doesn't make SD quality = HD quality

Post by PeterC
The TV is 1080p and I can't find the upscaling now! I've just tried using
the button for scaling on the Humax and it will make HD look poor but does
nothing for SD.

If the SD fills your HD TV screen it will have been up-scaled

If you take an HD image and then ask your foxsat box to down-scale it to
a lower resolution and then feed it to a TV that up-scales it again to
fill the screen than yes the result may look worse because some
information has been thrown away in the down-scaling process. This is
not true of the SD image because you haven't down-scaled it - just
output as broadcast. It much like your original comment about up-scaling
to a 4K resolution to be later down-scaled to a HD resolution being
reported as not too good.

[NY]

Post by alan_m
The worst I've seen recently was documentary film of WW2 possibly
previously been transferred to tape with many motion interlacing problems
unwatchable.

The worst I saw was 24 fps film that had been converted by 3:2 pulldown to
30 fps TV, and then converted to 25 fps for the British documentary. Every
single 25 fps frame showed a double image of two consecutive film frames
blended in varying proportions so you got a slow pulsing in addition to the
blurred images.

At the time of Princess Diana's funeral, I happened to switch to CNN and
they were borrowing (with permission?) BBC's or ITV's shots along with
cutaways to their own cameras. So you have 625/25 being converted to 525/30
for the US audience, and then converted back to 625/25 for distribution of
their channel in Europe. The results were not pretty whenever the camera
panned, and the difference in motion artefacts between PAL and NTSC cameras
were very noticeable, as was the strange garish, over-bright colour palette
that UK TV seems to use. When the hearse got to Diana's final resting place,
I noticed that the American commentator had been very well briefed about the
bizarre pronunciation of Althorp, so you had references to "Awltrop House in
the village of Olthorpe" which is pedantic but correct - for some reason the
House pronounces the word as if the letters had been reversed: "-trop"
rather than "-thorp". There's the same situation with Harewood between Leeds
and Harrogate. It's clearly named after a wood where hares were found, and
that's the way everyone round about pronounces it, but the House and the
Earldom are properly pronounced Harwood.

Post by alan_m
Up-scaling isn't a process that makes a picture better - just bigger. Some
processing engines are better than others at achieving this.
Up-scalling doesn't make SD quality = HD quality

I suppose the best that upscaling can do is to average adjacent lines
(having first converted interlaced to progressive, so I really do mean
adjacent and not every other one) to smooth the sharp staircase on a
diagonal line that simple line-doubling would do.

[The Other John]

There's the same situation with Harewood between Leeds and Harrogate.
It's clearly named after a wood where hares were found, and that's the
way everyone round about pronounces it, but the House and the Earldom
are properly pronounced Harwood.

Yeah, toffs are a funny lot. Near where I was born there was a 'big
house' where the family Levison-Gower lived - it's pronounced Looson-Gore.

[John Hall]

Post by The Other John

There's the same situation with Harewood between Leeds and Harrogate.
It's clearly named after a wood where hares were found, and that's the
way everyone round about pronounces it, but the House and the Earldom
are properly pronounced Harwood.

Yeah, toffs are a funny lot. Near where I was born there was a 'big
house' where the family Levison-Gower lived - it's pronounced Looson-Gore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leveson-Gower_family

[The Other John]

Post by John Hall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leveson-Gower_family

Yes, that's them. They were well respected locally.

[Roderick Stewart]

On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 22:52:02 +0000 (UTC), The Other John

Post by The Other John

There's the same situation with Harewood between Leeds and Harrogate.
It's clearly named after a wood where hares were found, and that's the
way everyone round about pronounces it, but the House and the Earldom
are properly pronounced Harwood.

Yeah, toffs are a funny lot. Near where I was born there was a 'big
house' where the family Levison-Gower lived - it's pronounced Looson-Gore.

I can imagine some inbred in one of the nether reaches of a
highfalutin family tree pronouncing a name wrongly in the nursery
(perhaps because their nanny or governess was foreign) and then
everybody around them copying the error because they thought it was
amusing, thus giving rise to a family tradition.

Rod.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Robin]

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 22:52:02 +0000 (UTC), The Other John

Post by The Other John

There's the same situation with Harewood between Leeds and Harrogate.
It's clearly named after a wood where hares were found, and that's the
way everyone round about pronounces it, but the House and the Earldom
are properly pronounced Harwood.

Yeah, toffs are a funny lot. Near where I was born there was a 'big
house' where the family Levison-Gower lived - it's pronounced Looson-Gore.

I can imagine some inbred in one of the nether reaches of a
highfalutin family tree pronouncing a name wrongly in the nursery
(perhaps because their nanny or governess was foreign) and then
everybody around them copying the error because they thought it was
amusing, thus giving rise to a family tradition.

It may be that the family carried on the pronouncing the name as in the
past while other people adopted a variation thinking of big-eared
rodents. I am not at all sure those big-ears are relevant given:

a. on the one hand, hares generally live in open country, not in woods; and

b. on the other hand I've seen it argued that "Harewood" comes from the
old English "har" (=grey, old, venerable) + [wood]

[Indy Jess John]

Post by Robin
b. on the other hand I've seen it argued that "Harewood" comes from the
old English "har" (=grey, old, venerable) + [wood]

Some remained named Harwood. During the war, my Mum was in the Land
Army and spent a lot of time digging for victory in the grounds of
Harwood Hall
http://www.upminster.com/history/places/harwood-hall.htm

Jim

[Mark]

Post by Robin

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 22:52:02 +0000 (UTC), The Other John

Post by The Other John

There's the same situation with Harewood between Leeds and Harrogate.
It's clearly named after a wood where hares were found, and that's the
way everyone round about pronounces it, but the House and the Earldom
are properly pronounced Harwood.

Yeah, toffs are a funny lot. Near where I was born there was a 'big
house' where the family Levison-Gower lived - it's pronounced Looson-Gore.

I can imagine some inbred in one of the nether reaches of a
highfalutin family tree pronouncing a name wrongly in the nursery
(perhaps because their nanny or governess was foreign) and then
everybody around them copying the error because they thought it was
amusing, thus giving rise to a family tradition.

It may be that the family carried on the pronouncing the name as in the
past while other people adopted a variation thinking of big-eared

Hares are not rodents. They are lagomorphs.

--snip--

[Robin]

Post by Mark

Post by Robin

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 22:52:02 +0000 (UTC), The Other John

Post by The Other John

There's the same situation with Harewood between Leeds and Harrogate.
It's clearly named after a wood where hares were found, and that's the
way everyone round about pronounces it, but the House and the Earldom
are properly pronounced Harwood.

Yeah, toffs are a funny lot. Near where I was born there was a 'big
house' where the family Levison-Gower lived - it's pronounced Looson-Gore.

I can imagine some inbred in one of the nether reaches of a
highfalutin family tree pronouncing a name wrongly in the nursery
(perhaps because their nanny or governess was foreign) and then
everybody around them copying the error because they thought it was
amusing, thus giving rise to a family tradition.

It may be that the family carried on the pronouncing the name as in the
past while other people adopted a variation thinking of big-eared

Hares are not rodents. They are lagomorphs.

Ta for that.

I think I must have learnt they were rodents from an old book I had as
child. (I use "were" as it seems rabbits and hares were classified as
rodents until 1912.)

[PeterC]

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC

Post by alan_m

Post by PeterC
My HD Panny should be able to, but even on DTTV that option's greyed out. I
use Freesat all the time and the Foxsat HDR's output is 1080i and it won't
upscale at all.

If the Foxsat set top box is outputting 1080i it has upscaled SD and
sends this to the TV. If your TV is HD then it cannot upscale anymore
because the input is already the maximum resolution of the TV. hence
greyed out options.

Unfortunately, it's very obvious that the SD isn'y upscaled - some channels
are bad.

If the SD picture fills the screen on a HD TV then it has been up-scaled.
Some of the lesser channels broadcast with highly compressed data that
no matter what processing is performed at the receiving end the picture
will always look crap.
Crap in = crap out.
The worst I've seen recently was documentary film of WW2 possibly
previously been transferred to tape with many motion interlacing
problems and then highly low pass filtered in the transmission process.
Result: unwatchable.
Up-scaling isn't a process that makes a picture better - just bigger.
Some processing engines are better than others at achieving this.
Up-scalling doesn't make SD quality = HD quality

Post by PeterC
The TV is 1080p and I can't find the upscaling now! I've just tried using
the button for scaling on the Humax and it will make HD look poor but does
nothing for SD.

If the SD fills your HD TV screen it will have been up-scaled
If you take an HD image and then ask your foxsat box to down-scale it to
a lower resolution and then feed it to a TV that up-scales it again to
fill the screen than yes the result may look worse because some
information has been thrown away in the down-scaling process. This is
not true of the SD image because you haven't down-scaled it - just
output as broadcast. It much like your original comment about up-scaling
to a 4K resolution to be later down-scaled to a HD resolution being
reported as not too good.

Thank for explaining it so clearly - I'd fondly imagined that the picture
was 'enhanced', rather like the pictures in CCTV in films where pixels are
magically plucked out of nothing!

As for the multiple processing, as in the post from NY, it seem to be
similar to 'send reinforcements, we're going to advance' ending up after
several stages as 'send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance!

[tim...]

Post by Another John
[Sorry - I've been away]

Post by Martin
We have two Humax PVRs. Every problem we have had so far has been caused by
the PVR. The cooling in Humax PVRs is inadequate
We've had 2 humax PVRs and both were buggy including sound problems with
HDMI. Seems Humax release these things as soon as the software runs for more
than 5 mins without crashing.

Would either of you (or anyone else) recommend any other particular
make? (When I first bought a Humax, it was because most users swore by
them (i.e., not at them).

the problem is that even though Humax has faults ITYF the others are worse

tim

Post by Another John
Cheers
John

[Indy Jess John]

Post by tim...
the problem is that even though Humax has faults ITYF the others are worse
tim

When I decided to get a Freesat+ PVR, the Humax ones were getting
criticised, so I ended up getting a Manhattan Plaza HDR-S from John
Lewis. It only has one fault that I have found[1] and otherwise it is a
very nice reliable box.

And unfortunately it has been discontinued :-(

However, if you see one second hand, I reckon it is worth a punt.

Jim

[1] If you use the channel up or channel down controls several times in
quick succession, you overrun the tuner's ability to keep up, and you
end up with the picture from one channel with the sound from another.
The only way out of this mismatch once it occurs is to power it off.
When it is powered back on, you have matching picture and sound once again.

[Peter Johnson]

Post by Another John
Would either of you (or anyone else) recommend any other particular
make? (When I first bought a Humax, it was because most users swore by
them (i.e., not at them).

Never had a Humax but very happy with my Panasonic DMR-BWT850, which I
bought because plays/records DVDs/Blu-rays, though I've never used it
to record discs.

[Max Demian]

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by Another John
Would either of you (or anyone else) recommend any other particular
make? (When I first bought a Humax, it was because most users swore by
them (i.e., not at them).

Never had a Humax but very happy with my Panasonic DMR-BWT850, which I
bought because plays/records DVDs/Blu-rays, though I've never used it
to record discs.

I've got a Panasonic DMR-EX97EB-K, which is much cheaper and only
records DVDs. (Do they let you copy HD content off air onto Blu-ray? I
thought the broadcasters set a flag to stop/discourage you from copying
HD programmes.) It's very good, and the only shortcomings are that
play/pause/skip is rather sluggish, and the user interface is rather
inconsistent between the menus/functions - obviously several different
development teams that weren't communicating. And there is a distinct
paucity of connections. You can't record from an external source, and
there aren't even audio outputs.