Discussion:
Radio on Freeview
(too old to reply)
Brian Gaff
2023-08-25 12:01:23 UTC
Permalink
I'm seeing a lot of the stations on Freeview dedicated to radio moving from
Stereo to Mono. Even Classic FM has done it now, which in my view negates
the point of having it on there, they are also going DAB plus on that band.
I was wondering if we are in fact seeing the beginning of the end for Radio
on this platform? Just how much more bandwidth would they get from chucking
radio off though? Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Mark Carver
2023-08-25 12:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Gaff
I'm seeing a lot of the stations on Freeview dedicated to radio moving from
Stereo to Mono. Even Classic FM has done it now,
I've just taken a listen, Classic FM on Freeview is in stereo on my
telly....
Woody
2023-08-25 13:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Carver
Post by Brian Gaff
I'm seeing a lot of the stations on Freeview dedicated to radio moving from
Stereo to Mono. Even Classic FM has done it now,
I've just taken a listen, Classic FM on Freeview is in stereo on my
telly....
From what I can see it looks as though many of the commercial stations
are running at or near the lowest rate possible - 112kb or 128kb.
As the cost of broadcasting is directly related the data rate being used
going to 56kb or 64kb will slash costs. Also 64kb is the standard speed
for an analogue over digital (AoD) landline so the cost of the landline
feeding the broadcasting system is drastically cut. I accept that many
are likely using IP connections but there may be other that do not - AND
it means that two 64kb services can be run over an existing 128kb
digital line if that is what they are using for stereo. Yet more saving.
Scott
2023-08-25 14:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woody
Post by Mark Carver
Post by Brian Gaff
I'm seeing a lot of the stations on Freeview dedicated to radio moving from
Stereo to Mono. Even Classic FM has done it now,
I've just taken a listen, Classic FM on Freeview is in stereo on my
telly....
From what I can see it looks as though many of the commercial stations
are running at or near the lowest rate possible - 112kb or 128kb.
As the cost of broadcasting is directly related the data rate being used
going to 56kb or 64kb will slash costs. Also 64kb is the standard speed
for an analogue over digital (AoD) landline so the cost of the landline
feeding the broadcasting system is drastically cut. I accept that many
are likely using IP connections but there may be other that do not - AND
it means that two 64kb services can be run over an existing 128kb
digital line if that is what they are using for stereo. Yet more saving.
I can understand your logic for DAB where capacity is limited but
surely for Freeview the bandwidth occupied by a radio station must be
miniscule compared to a TV channel?
MB
2023-08-25 14:49:58 UTC
Permalink
I can understand your logic for DAB where capacity is limited but surely
for Freeview the bandwidth occupied by a radio station must be miniscule
compared to a TV channel?
So why do they close down Radio 1, 2 and 3 during the evening?
Mark Carver
2023-08-25 15:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by MB
Post by Scott
I can understand your logic for DAB where capacity is limited but
surely for Freeview the bandwidth occupied by a radio station must be
miniscule compared to a TV channel?
So why do they close down Radio 1, 2 and 3 during the evening?
Only in Scotland to accommodate BBC Alba TV.

For the vast majority of the UK population that's not the case

BBC National Radio on Freeview runs at 192k
Brian Gaff
2023-08-26 09:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Yes that is the minimum to be tolerable in my experience. In the early days
of DAB there was a live Bee Gees concert at the beeb putout with great
dynamics and realistic sound. What they do now is marred by compression and
severe brick wall filtering at hf and lower bit rates. Sounds flat and
grainy.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Post by Mark Carver
Post by MB
I can understand your logic for DAB where capacity is limited but surely
for Freeview the bandwidth occupied by a radio station must be miniscule
compared to a TV channel?
So why do they close down Radio 1, 2 and 3 during the evening?
Only in Scotland to accommodate BBC Alba TV.
For the vast majority of the UK population that's not the case
BBC National Radio on Freeview runs at 192k
charles
2023-08-25 15:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by MB
I can understand your logic for DAB where capacity is limited but surely
for Freeview the bandwidth occupied by a radio station must be miniscule
compared to a TV channel?
So why do they close down Radio 1, 2 and 3 during the evening?
This is, of course, a Scotland only problem to allow space from BBC Alba.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Scott
2023-08-25 16:24:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by MB
I can understand your logic for DAB where capacity is limited but surely
for Freeview the bandwidth occupied by a radio station must be miniscule
compared to a TV channel?
So why do they close down Radio 1, 2 and 3 during the evening?
This is, of course, a Scotland only problem to allow space from BBC Alba.
Though it does of course contextualise my suggestion that there is
loads of space on TV multiplexes.
Brian Gaff
2023-08-26 09:56:26 UTC
Permalink
What on Freeview? I don't see that here. Maybe its only on some of the non
main transmitters.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Post by MB
I can understand your logic for DAB where capacity is limited but surely
for Freeview the bandwidth occupied by a radio station must be miniscule
compared to a TV channel?
So why do they close down Radio 1, 2 and 3 during the evening?
charles
2023-08-26 11:08:02 UTC
Permalink
Brian

This only applies in Scotland.
Post by Brian Gaff
What on Freeview? I don't see that here. Maybe its only on some of the
non main transmitters. Brian
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Pete Forman
2023-08-25 21:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woody
Post by Mark Carver
Post by Brian Gaff
I'm seeing a lot of the stations on Freeview dedicated to radio
moving from Stereo to Mono. Even Classic FM has done it now,
I've just taken a listen, Classic FM on Freeview is in stereo on my
telly....
From what I can see it looks as though many of the commercial stations
are running at or near the lowest rate possible - 112kb or 128kb. As
the cost of broadcasting is directly related the data rate being used
going to 56kb or 64kb will slash costs. Also 64kb is the standard
speed for an analogue over digital (AoD) landline so the cost of the
landline feeding the broadcasting system is drastically cut. I accept
that many are likely using IP connections but there may be other that
do not - AND it means that two 64kb services can be run over an
existing 128kb digital line if that is what they are using for stereo.
Yet more saving.
My expectation is that stereo can be delivered with rather less
bandwidth than two independent mono channels.
--
Pete Forman
https://payg.pythonanywhere.com/
Brian Gaff
2023-08-26 10:06:20 UTC
Permalink
But they don't do that.
I feel sure that Classic FM on freeview is mono, and the person who says it
s not has not listened recently. Of course it might be an outage in some of
the distribution system where Classic has automatically switched to mono and
nobody bothers to check it.
We endured months of interference here from a faulty AM transmitter of
Premier where it was splattering over the whole medium wave band. It was
only when I rang offcom that anything was done about it.. I guess nobody
listens to medium wave any more.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Post by Pete Forman
Post by Woody
Post by Mark Carver
Post by Brian Gaff
I'm seeing a lot of the stations on Freeview dedicated to radio
moving from Stereo to Mono. Even Classic FM has done it now,
I've just taken a listen, Classic FM on Freeview is in stereo on my
telly....
From what I can see it looks as though many of the commercial stations
are running at or near the lowest rate possible - 112kb or 128kb. As
the cost of broadcasting is directly related the data rate being used
going to 56kb or 64kb will slash costs. Also 64kb is the standard
speed for an analogue over digital (AoD) landline so the cost of the
landline feeding the broadcasting system is drastically cut. I accept
that many are likely using IP connections but there may be other that
do not - AND it means that two 64kb services can be run over an
existing 128kb digital line if that is what they are using for stereo.
Yet more saving.
My expectation is that stereo can be delivered with rather less
bandwidth than two independent mono channels.
--
Pete Forman
https://payg.pythonanywhere.com/
Mark Carver
2023-08-28 16:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Gaff
But they don't do that.
I feel sure that Classic FM on freeview is mono, and the person who says it
s not has not listened recently.
Guilty as charged, that was me. It did sound stereo when I took a quick
listen, but it can't be going by the overwhelming evidence from others
(and not least its DVB parameters) so I'll get me coat......
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Woody
2023-08-28 22:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Gaff
But they don't do that.
  I feel sure that Classic FM on freeview is mono, and the person who
says it
s not has not listened recently.
Guilty as charged, that was me.  It did sound stereo when I took a quick
listen, but it can't be going by the overwhelming evidence from others
(and not least its DVB parameters) so I'll get me coat......
I think this page says it all - unless I have misunderstood it - it says
Classic has always been in mono in Freeview which was my belief.

https://tinyurl.com/4jdc8dsy
Woody
2023-08-28 22:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woody
Post by Brian Gaff
But they don't do that.
  I feel sure that Classic FM on freeview is mono, and the person who
says it
s not has not listened recently.
Guilty as charged, that was me.  It did sound stereo when I took a
quick listen, but it can't be going by the overwhelming evidence from
others (and not least its DVB parameters) so I'll get me coat......
I think this page says it all - unless I have misunderstood it - it says
Classic has always been in mono in Freeview which was my belief.
https://tinyurl.com/4jdc8dsy
Oops! Missed the bit at the bottom.... (Can I borrow you coat please Mark?)
NY
2023-08-30 11:15:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Gaff
But they don't do that.
I feel sure that Classic FM on freeview is mono, and the person who says
it s not has not listened recently. Of course it might be an outage in
some of the distribution system where Classic has automatically switched
to mono and nobody bothers to check it.
I have just listened to Classic FM on Freeview (Belmont transmitter) and on
Freesat. Freeview is mono (and the stream details say mono) whereas Freesat
is stereo (and the stream says stereo).


It is a shame, because Freeview/Freesat is the easiest way of scheduling a
recording of a radio programme using the same technology and PVR as for TV.
Brian Gregory
2023-08-31 21:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
I have just listened to Classic FM on Freeview (Belmont transmitter) and
on Freesat. Freeview is mono (and the stream details say mono) whereas
Freesat is stereo (and the stream says stereo).
Yes on satellite, Classic FM is 192kb/s stereo which is adequate quality.
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
Brian Gaff
2023-08-27 12:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Not here in London, its gone mono for some weeks now just like the other
Global stations did some time ago.
At the moment the stereo channels are all BBc, The main1 1xtra 2 3 4 Asian
network and 6 music. 4xtra, world service if its still there, and the local
stations are all mono as well. Transworld boring radio has always been mono.
All the other commercials are mono.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Post by Pete Forman
Post by Woody
Post by Mark Carver
Post by Brian Gaff
I'm seeing a lot of the stations on Freeview dedicated to radio
moving from Stereo to Mono. Even Classic FM has done it now,
I've just taken a listen, Classic FM on Freeview is in stereo on my
telly....
From what I can see it looks as though many of the commercial stations
are running at or near the lowest rate possible - 112kb or 128kb. As
the cost of broadcasting is directly related the data rate being used
going to 56kb or 64kb will slash costs. Also 64kb is the standard
speed for an analogue over digital (AoD) landline so the cost of the
landline feeding the broadcasting system is drastically cut. I accept
that many are likely using IP connections but there may be other that
do not - AND it means that two 64kb services can be run over an
existing 128kb digital line if that is what they are using for stereo.
Yet more saving.
My expectation is that stereo can be delivered with rather less
bandwidth than two independent mono channels.
--
Pete Forman
https://payg.pythonanywhere.com/
Brian Gaff
2023-08-26 09:53:59 UTC
Permalink
Classic is still in Mono, and sounds very hard and peaky as well. It used to
be quite nice sounding.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Post by Mark Carver
Post by Brian Gaff
I'm seeing a lot of the stations on Freeview dedicated to radio moving from
Stereo to Mono. Even Classic FM has done it now,
I've just taken a listen, Classic FM on Freeview is in stereo on my
telly....
From what I can see it looks as though many of the commercial stations are
running at or near the lowest rate possible - 112kb or 128kb.
As the cost of broadcasting is directly related the data rate being used
going to 56kb or 64kb will slash costs. Also 64kb is the standard speed
for an analogue over digital (AoD) landline so the cost of the landline
feeding the broadcasting system is drastically cut. I accept that many are
likely using IP connections but there may be other that do not - AND it
means that two 64kb services can be run over an existing 128kb digital
line if that is what they are using for stereo. Yet more saving.
Scott
2023-08-26 10:00:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 26 Aug 2023 10:53:59 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
Post by Brian Gaff
Classic is still in Mono, and sounds very hard and peaky as well. It used to
be quite nice sounding.
I see Classic is on COM 5 (Freeview Heavy). As a commercial
multiplex, could this vary by area?
Brian Gaff
2023-08-26 10:08:26 UTC
Permalink
That is hard to know.
I'll have another listen this evening. Could be a long running fault in
the stereo feed, but its on the internet in Stereo, so how hard can it be to
get it at the distribution hub for London?
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Post by Scott
On Sat, 26 Aug 2023 10:53:59 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
Post by Brian Gaff
Classic is still in Mono, and sounds very hard and peaky as well. It used to
be quite nice sounding.
I see Classic is on COM 5 (Freeview Heavy). As a commercial
multiplex, could this vary by area?
Brian Gregory
2023-08-26 14:58:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Gaff
That is hard to know.
I'll have another listen this evening. Could be a long running fault in
the stereo feed, but its on the internet in Stereo, so how hard can it be to
get it at the distribution hub for London?
Brian
I get Freeview from Hannington which carries BBC South / ITV Meridian
As far as I can see, at around 15:45 today Classic FM is 64k Mono.

Media Info says:
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 2
Codec ID : 4
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 64.0 kb/s
Channel(s) : 1 channel
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 41.667 FPS (1152 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 479 KiB (75%)
Language : English
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
Brian Gregory
2023-08-27 20:00:16 UTC
Permalink
In case anyone doesn't realise. It's not just mono, it's bad sounding
low bit rate mono.
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
Scott
2023-08-29 16:40:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 27 Aug 2023 21:00:16 +0100, Brian Gregory
Post by Brian Gregory
In case anyone doesn't realise. It's not just mono, it's bad sounding
low bit rate mono.
Is it MP2 - same as DAB?
Brian Gregory
2023-08-29 17:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott
On Sun, 27 Aug 2023 21:00:16 +0100, Brian Gregory
Post by Brian Gregory
In case anyone doesn't realise. It's not just mono, it's bad sounding
low bit rate mono.
Is it MP2 - same as DAB?
I believe so. I guess the Media Info program I used on the recording I
made could be wrong.

Also, if it is something more advanced like AAC, then there would surely
be some non HD TVs that couldn't play it.
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
Scott
2023-08-29 17:16:43 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 18:13:32 +0100, Brian Gregory
Post by Brian Gregory
Post by Scott
On Sun, 27 Aug 2023 21:00:16 +0100, Brian Gregory
Post by Brian Gregory
In case anyone doesn't realise. It's not just mono, it's bad sounding
low bit rate mono.
Is it MP2 - same as DAB?
I believe so. I guess the Media Info program I used on the recording I
made could be wrong.
Also, if it is something more advanced like AAC, then there would surely
be some non HD TVs that couldn't play it.
I thought Freeview sound was MP3 (except HD).
Brian Gregory
2023-08-29 18:20:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott
I thought Freeview sound was MP3 (except HD).
No. MP2.
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
Scott
2023-08-29 19:49:52 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 19:20:39 +0100, Brian Gregory
Post by Brian Gregory
Post by Scott
I thought Freeview sound was MP3 (except HD).
No. MP2.
This makes sense given the date of commencement of ONdigital.
Woody
2023-08-29 18:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Gregory
Post by Scott
On Sun, 27 Aug 2023 21:00:16 +0100, Brian Gregory
Post by Brian Gregory
In case anyone doesn't realise. It's not just mono, it's bad sounding
low bit rate mono.
Is it MP2 - same as DAB?
I believe so. I guess the Media Info program I used on the recording I
made could be wrong.
Also, if it is something more advanced like AAC, then there would surely
be some non HD TVs that couldn't play it.
DAB is mp2
DAB+ is AAC (or was it AAC+?)
Brian Gregory
2023-08-29 18:22:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woody
DAB+ is AAC (or was it AAC+?)
AFAIK both are supported on DAB+.
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
Dave W
2023-08-26 15:09:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 26 Aug 2023 11:08:26 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
Post by Brian Gaff
That is hard to know.
I'll have another listen this evening. Could be a long running fault in
the stereo feed, but its on the internet in Stereo, so how hard can it be to
get it at the distribution hub for London?
Brian
I've just listened with headphones and can confirm that Classic FM is
indeed M
The Other John
2023-08-26 21:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave W
I've just listened with headphones and can confirm that Classic FM is
indeed Mono in Epsom.
Same here in Reigate which is a relay of CP.
--
TOJ.
Brian Gaff
2023-08-27 11:59:17 UTC
Permalink
That is indeed odd.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Post by The Other John
Post by Dave W
I've just listened with headphones and can confirm that Classic FM is
indeed Mono in Epsom.
Same here in Reigate which is a relay of CP.
--
TOJ.
Max Demian
2023-08-29 13:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Gaff
I'm seeing a lot of the stations on Freeview dedicated to radio moving from
Stereo to Mono. Even Classic FM has done it now, which in my view negates
the point of having it on there, they are also going DAB plus on that band.
I was wondering if we are in fact seeing the beginning of the end for Radio
on this platform? Just how much more bandwidth would they get from chucking
radio off though? Brian
Does it really use so much more bandwidth to transmit in stereo as mono?
It won't be twice as much, as you only need the mono plus the difference
between the channels - I think it's called "joint stereo".
--
Max Demian
Vir Campestris
2023-08-31 20:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Does it really use so much more bandwidth to transmit in stereo as mono?
It won't be twice as much, as you only need the mono plus the difference
between the channels - I think it's called "joint stereo".
Well... it depends. I think usually about 50% extra will give you the
second channel - usually 64kb mono going to 96 joint stereo.

But it's all subjective.

Andy
Brian Gaff
2023-09-01 10:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Well do not know but if they use lossy compression for mp3 then its pretty
dire to use a matrix system with incomplete audio, you get phase errors and
a kind of swizzling sound like a stretched cassette tape.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Post by Max Demian
Post by Brian Gaff
I'm seeing a lot of the stations on Freeview dedicated to radio moving from
Stereo to Mono. Even Classic FM has done it now, which in my view negates
the point of having it on there, they are also going DAB plus on that band.
I was wondering if we are in fact seeing the beginning of the end for Radio
on this platform? Just how much more bandwidth would they get from chucking
radio off though? Brian
Does it really use so much more bandwidth to transmit in stereo as mono?
It won't be twice as much, as you only need the mono plus the difference
between the channels - I think it's called "joint stereo".
--
Max Demian
Loading...