Setting Rx and DiSEqC Motor

[law1]

I have the following:
Ross HDR-6110USB HD Satellite Receiver
Moteck SG2100A DiSEqC motor

Has anyone sucessfully set up this rx and motor. The rx manual doesn't
go into sufficient detail for me to complete the job.
The dish support pole, motor and dish angles are set up ok. I can move
the dish to various satellite positions via the rx, but cannot programme
the lot to work automatically, hope someone can help please!

[John Legon]

Post by law1
Ross HDR-6110USB HD Satellite Receiver
Moteck SG2100A DiSEqC motor
Has anyone sucessfully set up this rx and motor. The rx manual doesn't
go into sufficient detail for me to complete the job.
The dish support pole, motor and dish angles are set up ok. I can move
the dish to various satellite positions via the rx, but cannot programme
the lot to work automatically, hope someone can help please!

I use a 4-way DiSEqC switch with this box with no problems at all, but
haven't tried using a motor. I assume that under Antenna settings, you
have set the option for DiSEqC 1.2 for the satellites in question?

Failing that, you might find more detailed instructions in the manuals
of the German clones, e.g. the Telsky S 220 HD (www.telsky.de). Look
for the section on 'Motor Konfiguration'. Google language tools will
give you a rough translation...

[Bill (Adopt)]

Post by John Legon

Post by law1
Ross HDR-6110USB HD Satellite Receiver
Moteck SG2100A DiSEqC motor
Has anyone sucessfully set up this rx and motor. The rx manual doesn't
go into sufficient detail for me to complete the job.
The dish support pole, motor and dish angles are set up ok. I can move
the dish to various satellite positions via the rx, but cannot programme
the lot to work automatically, hope someone can help please!

I use a 4-way DiSEqC switch with this box with no problems at all, but
haven't tried using a motor. I assume that under Antenna settings, you
have set the option for DiSEqC 1.2 for the satellites in question?

[..]
Similarly and likewise for some years now, although I do use
my boxes USALS motor option with the SG2100A DiSEqC. This
enables the motor to work automatically when a satellite or
channel is selected.

To elaborate, the motor works perfectly with both an earlier
German LiDL 'box', (discussed here many times and comprehensively
programmeable complete with timer sets et al), as presently
with a standard Humax Freesat HDR in both it's 'Non-Freesat'
mode and, when returned to 28.2E, in it's 'Freesat' guise.

The motor (Moteck=Eutelsat, I believe) directs the 82cm
dish, receiving quality signal over the known horizon from
Cuba/Ecuador in the far West North Atlantic to Bear Lake
(Alaska!) in the equally as far East across the other side
of Europe/Russia.

The two boxes can be/are programmeable for all of the sats
transmitting across this arc, although they do need to have
their 'USALS' (Universal Satellite Automatic Locator
Software) menu selected for the motor to work as intended.

Having selected USALS, (sometimes known as 'Go To X' or
inaccurately as DiSEqC 1.3), the box should automatically
direct your dish to whichever satellite and channel you
have selected. There's a slight pause while the dish pans
quietly across the horizon to your selected positions - but
it's all automatic. :))

The USAL software, by the way, is near-enough freely available
to all box makers and these days is a robustly reliable standard.

However, if you've selected DiSEqC 1.2 in your Ross-Box menu,
(or this is all you have), then this may assume that you have
a static dish and are merely LNB switching between the main
satellite groups at 28.2E/28.5E and either 19.0E or the spread
at 13.0E.

Some boxes, (perhaps earlier variants and not necessarily the
cheapest to buy), do not have USALS amongst their menu options
and so will need to use DiSEqC 1.2 static switching of the LNB.

It's possible that your box is one such - in which case it's
likely that the Motech motor will never move automatically
but only when you press it's horizon buttons ..something that
you should only expect to do when setting up - and hardly even
then.

However, the Motech motor unit will still work, so far as I
aware, perfectly in static dish DiSEqC 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 setting
as that is also, with modern boxes, under the control of the
onboard box software, only relying upon you accurately aligning
the static dish as well as the pole perpendicularity in the first
place.

So I guess it's possible that you merely need to select the
USALS ('Go To x'/DiSEq 1.3) setting in your Ross box - and
program in your satellites should this not already be available
- for the Motech motor to work automatically as you command.

The satellite positions - and copious lists of channel names etc
can be gained simply from 'What Satellite and Digital TV' maggie
- or online from all over the place via google etc. (Many
boxes even do this automatically these days).. :))

As for addiional setting up help then 'Java Jive' is an excellent
source of considerable and specialised help - I'm sure he'll role
up in a moment should you request... :))


Hope is an additional help... :))

Bill ZFC

[John Legon]

Post by Bill (Adopt)

Post by John Legon

Post by law1
Ross HDR-6110USB HD Satellite Receiver
Moteck SG2100A DiSEqC motor
Has anyone sucessfully set up this rx and motor. The rx manual doesn't
go into sufficient detail for me to complete the job.
The dish support pole, motor and dish angles are set up ok. I can move
the dish to various satellite positions via the rx, but cannot programme
the lot to work automatically, hope someone can help please!

I use a 4-way DiSEqC switch with this box with no problems at all, but
haven't tried using a motor. I assume that under Antenna settings, you
have set the option for DiSEqC 1.2 for the satellites in question?

[..]
Similarly and likewise for some years now, although I do use
my boxes USALS motor option with the SG2100A DiSEqC. This
enables the motor to work automatically when a satellite or
channel is selected.

[...]

Post by Bill (Adopt)
However, if you've selected DiSEqC 1.2 in your Ross-Box menu,
(or this is all you have), then this may assume that you have
a static dish and are merely LNB switching between the main
satellite groups at 28.2E/28.5E and either 19.0E or the spread
at 13.0E.
Some boxes, (perhaps earlier variants and not necessarily the
cheapest to buy), do not have USALS amongst their menu options
and so will need to use DiSEqC 1.2 static switching of the LNB.

Except that DiSEqC 1.2 is a motor-control protocol. That's why I
questioned whether it had been selected in the Ross antenna menu.

To clarify, the Ross receiver supports the following:

DiSEqC 1.0 switching between 4 LNBs

DiSEqC 1.1 switching between 16 LNBs

DiSEqC 1.2 basic motor control

USALS simplified motor control - requires DiSEqC 1.2

As I see it, whether or not the OP uses DisEqC 1.2 or USALS to position
the dish, DiSEqC 1.2 should be selected in the Antenna configuration -
something which isn't made clear in the Ross manual.

Whether this will solve the problem is another matter...

[law1]

Post by law1
Ross HDR-6110USB HD Satellite Receiver
Moteck SG2100A DiSEqC motor
Has anyone sucessfully set up this rx and motor. The rx manual doesn't
go into sufficient detail for me to complete the job.
The dish support pole, motor and dish angles are set up ok. I can move
the dish to various satellite positions via the rx, but cannot
programme
the lot to work automatically, hope someone can help please!--
-
I use a 4-way DiSEqC switch with this box with no problems at all, but
haven't tried using a motor. I assume that under Antenna settings, you
have set the option for DiSEqC 1.2 for the satellites in question? -
[..]-
-
Similarly and likewise for some years now, although I do use
my boxes USALS motor option with the SG2100A DiSEqC. This
enables the motor to work automatically when a satellite or
channel is selected. -
[...]-
However, if you've selected DiSEqC 1.2 in your Ross-Box menu,
(or this is all you have), then this may assume that you have
a static dish and are merely LNB switching between the main
satellite groups at 28.2E/28.5E and either 19.0E or the spread
at 13.0E.
Some boxes, (perhaps earlier variants and not necessarily the
cheapest to buy), do not have USALS amongst their menu options
and so will need to use DiSEqC 1.2 static switching of the LNB. -
Except that DiSEqC 1.2 is a motor-control protocol. That's why I
questioned whether it had been selected in the Ross antenna menu.
DiSEqC 1.0 switching between 4 LNBs
DiSEqC 1.1 switching between 16 LNBs
DiSEqC 1.2 basic motor control
USALS simplified motor control - requires DiSEqC 1.2
As I see it, whether or not the OP uses DisEqC 1.2 or USALS to position
the dish, DiSEqC 1.2 should be selected in the Antenna configuration -
something which isn't made clear in the Ross manual.
Whether this will solve the problem is another matter...

Thanks for the replies,

I have attached an extract from the manual. This is all that is
available to help set up the motor control, I don't think it is enough.
Getting back to basics, I switch on the receiver and the dish is sitting
at 28 east and I have all the channels. Now I move the dish manually to
19 east and I have all channels.

Bearing in mind:
Dish and motor etc are installed correctly.
Options on the receiver are correct i.e USALS is set to on and lat and
lon are filled in.
In antenna setup, I have selected DiSEqC 1.2
Poor 'instructions' as shown in the attached manual extract.

How do I actually store the sat positions!

I have highlighted items in the extract which are particularly not clear
and the reference to (Reset) Recalculate in motor config isn't explained
at all.

A final question have the motor preset satellite positions and the
reference position in the motor config to be the same.

Hope all this is not too confusing and that it makes the scenario a bit
clearer.

Thanks again.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: HD Digital Receiver.pdf |
|Download: http://www.homecinemabanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

[John Legon]

Post by law1

Post by law1
Ross HDR-6110USB HD Satellite Receiver
Moteck SG2100A DiSEqC motor

Thanks for the replies,

Since I haven't tried using the Ross with a motor, I can only offer a
few suggestions and hope that something can be sorted. I'm tempted to
put a motor on my spare dish just to see if it can be made to work.

Post by law1
I have attached an extract from the manual. This is all that is
available to help set up the motor control, I don't think it is enough.

Agreed.

Post by law1
Getting back to basics, I switch on the receiver and the dish is sitting
at 28 east and I have all the channels. Now I move the dish manually to
19 east and I have all channels.

By "move the dish manually", I take it you mean move the dish using the
manual controls in motor configuration menu, to move continuously or in
steps. If it works, then that at least shows that the Ross receiver is
outputting commands to the motor.

Post by law1
Dish and motor etc are installed correctly.
Options on the receiver are correct i.e USALS is set to on and lat and
lon are filled in.
In antenna setup, I have selected DiSEqC 1.2
Poor 'instructions' as shown in the attached manual extract.
How do I actually store the sat positions!

You presumably won't need to store the positions if you're using USALS,
since the receiver will use the longitude of the satellite to calculate
the bearing, and then send a control command to the motor to drive the
dish to that position.

Otherwise, I would guess that the positions are stored automatically
when you exit the menu.

Have you set the limits for the east/west movement of the dish?

There's a hint in the German manual that this has to be done before
the automatic motor control will operate.

Since the instructions are entirely missing in the Ross manual,
here's my translation of the German:

6.2.3.1 Setting the East-West limits
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Go to the line 'Limit Set' using the CH+/CH- keys

2 Use the VOL+/VOL- keys to select West limit.

3 Go to the line 'Continuously Move' using the CH+/CH-
buttons and steer the motor to the West limit using
the VOL +/VOL- keys

4 Go back to the line 'Limit Set' and select East limit.

5 Go to the line 'Continuously Move' using the CH+/CH-
keys and steer the motor to the eastern limit using
the VOL+/VOL- keys.

Post by law1
I have highlighted items in the extract which are particularly not clear
and the reference to (Reset) Recalculate in motor config isn't explained
at all.

I think the description given for "Reference position" actually applies
to the "(Reset) Recalculate" option:

<Set the original position for the satellite receiver dish.>

Post by law1
East / West: Select EAST / WEST depending on the Satellite locations

This refers to whether your longitude is east/west of Greenwich, not the
satellite locations...

Post by law1
A final question have the motor preset satellite positions and the
reference position in the motor config to be the same.

I would assume that the receiver programs the motor using the same
reference numbers.

[Java Jive]

As you say, not clear at all, and section 6.2 is either missing from
the manual or just from your extract. Any chance of seeing the whole
manual?

I *think*, but really am not sure, that:

* "Reference position: Set the original position for the satellite
receiver dish." means that choosing that option will send the rotor to
the central meridian position. Try send the dish way or the other a
noticeable distance (check it visually), then choose that option and
see if it returns to pointing down your meridian.

* "East / West: Select EAST / WEST depending on the Satellite
locations" is a mistake, it should really say choose East or West
depending on the site longitude, just as you did immediately
beforehand to select North or South (though actually you probably
ignored that as the receiver defaults to North, as is required for the
UK, so you didn't actually have to do anything).

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 00:28:01 +0000, law1

Post by law1
I have attached an extract from the manual.

...

Post by law1
How do I actually store the sat positions!

...

Post by law1
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: HD Digital Receiver.pdf |
|Download: http://www.homecinemabanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

[Jim]

Post by law1

Post by law1
Ross HDR-6110USB HD Satellite Receiver
Moteck SG2100A DiSEqC motor
Has anyone sucessfully set up this rx and motor. The rx manual doesn't
go into sufficient detail for me to complete the job.

Yes, I have set up that box with a clone of the
Moteck. (Icecrypt - manual is identical to one
downloaded from the Moteck site). You are certainly
right about the Ross manual.

Post by law1

Post by law1
The dish support pole, motor and dish angles are set up ok. I can move
the dish to various satellite positions via the rx, but cannot programme
the lot to work automatically, hope someone can help please!--
-

You did better than my first attempts. The Ross dish
bracket angle was "off the scale" according to the
instructions and I had to judge it by trial and error.
I also mis-read the motor elevation scale - the mark
is the raised "pip" to the south side of the nut and
not (as I first thought) the nut itself. If you can
get satellites all round the arc, well done.

Post by law1

Post by law1
I use a 4-way DiSEqC switch with this box with no problems at all, but
haven't tried using a motor. I assume that under Antenna settings, you
have set the option for DiSEqC 1.2 for the satellites in question? -
[..]-
-
Similarly and likewise for some years now, although I do use
my boxes USALS motor option with the SG2100A DiSEqC. This
enables the motor to work automatically when a satellite or
channel is selected. -
[...]-
However, if you've selected DiSEqC 1.2 in your Ross-Box menu,
(or this is all you have), then this may assume that you have
a static dish and are merely LNB switching between the main
satellite groups at 28.2E/28.5E and either 19.0E or the spread
at 13.0E.
Some boxes, (perhaps earlier variants and not necessarily the
cheapest to buy), do not have USALS amongst their menu options
and so will need to use DiSEqC 1.2 static switching of the LNB. -
Except that DiSEqC 1.2 is a motor-control protocol. That's why I
questioned whether it had been selected in the Ross antenna menu.
DiSEqC 1.0 switching between 4 LNBs
DiSEqC 1.1 switching between 16 LNBs
DiSEqC 1.2 basic motor control
USALS simplified motor control - requires DiSEqC 1.2
As I see it, whether or not the OP uses DisEqC 1.2 or USALS to position
the dish, DiSEqC 1.2 should be selected in the Antenna configuration -
something which isn't made clear in the Ross manual.
Whether this will solve the problem is another matter...

That is correct. I have selected DiSEqC 1.2 for each
satellite (else the motor won't move when the
satellite's selected), and turned USALS on with my
latitude/longitude settings. That's really all you
need. Except, for my combination, the motor moved
West when it should have turned East, so I changed
latitude to South and now it's OK. Please let me know
if you get the same effect, then I'll know it's the
box and not the motor.

Post by law1
Thanks for the replies,
I have attached an extract from the manual. This is all that is
available to help set up the motor control, I don't think it is enough.
Getting back to basics, I switch on the receiver and the dish is sitting
at 28 east and I have all the channels. Now I move the dish manually to
19 east and I have all channels.
Dish and motor etc are installed correctly.
Options on the receiver are correct i.e USALS is set to on and lat and
lon are filled in.
In antenna setup, I have selected DiSEqC 1.2
Poor 'instructions' as shown in the attached manual extract.

Is the motor moving the right way? See my comment
above over North/South latitude setting.

It's best to line up on a satellite that's nearest due
South - depending on your longitude, the ones at 0.8W
or 5W are strong enough. Move the motor to the zero
scale mark using the button, then reset it using the
recessed button. The lamp flashes orange then returns
to green. Then point the dish South and select your
target satellite on the Ross box. Make the fine
azimuth (motor) and elevation (dish) adjustments,
ideally using a portable in-line meter, then tighten
up all round. Tightening the nuts will probably shift
alignment slightly, so do a part-turn on each at a
time and keep the meter on until finished.

Post by law1
How do I actually store the sat positions!

Not necessary with USALS. As long as the satellite
longitude is set in the programming, the motor should
find it.

In practice, I have found one or two satellites a bit
off. I had to move Hispasat to 30.3W - don't know if
this is a bug or fault in the system (or even just
satellite drift). I changed another marginal
satellite position as well to avoid the minor
re-alignment needed to pull in a weak signal. Once
you select a satellite, you can use motor
configuration to adjust for maximum signal, but that
re-alignment is only temporary and will be lost on
moving to another satellite, or on power-off.

Post by law1
I have highlighted items in the extract which are particularly not clear
and the reference to (Reset) Recalculate in motor config isn't explained
at all.

Indeed. I kept trying to cure minor misalignments
with this until I could see it wasn't working. I
believe this is meant to apply to the (60?) stored
satellite positions in the motor. We don't use those
with USALS. It only uses the "Go East/Go West"
commands with (I think) a parameter for the number of
steps. Those positions are for the "Goto" commands.

Post by law1
A final question have the motor preset satellite positions and the
reference position in the motor config to be the same.

Without USALS, I would expect so, but you'd need to
turn it off to check. I'm not mucking about with mine!

One thing I haven't done is set limits. I couldn't
get the tube off to access the hardware stops, but
there's an option in the motor configuration menu I
haven't tried yet.

Post by law1
Hope all this is not too confusing and that it makes the scenario a bit
clearer.

One tip that may be worthwhile is that there's an
alternative software for the box on the Telsky site.
http://www.telsky.de/index8582.html?nav=DVB_S,de,5-5
The 230HD is the actual equivalent of the Ross, but
software's the same on the 220HD. It's the file dated
30.06.10 (actually version 1.0.7), upgradeable over
USB from the menu. John Legon has tried this and
found some improvements over the Ross versions. In
another thread here, he reports it lists 40
satellites, (against only 10 for the Ross firmware) so
loading that could save you a lot of manual work.

You need to upgrade to V1.0.7 anyway to cure DVB-S2 HD
decoding problems. It hasn't appeared on the Ross
site yet, but their tech support will send you a copy
on request. The Telsky version could be a better
option, though. If I hadn't already manually
programmed or updated the 20 satellites I can receive
from 28E to 30W, I'd switch myself.

[Jim]

<<snip>>

Post by law1
A final question have the motor preset satellite positions and the
reference position in the motor config to be the same.

Without USALS, I would expect so, but you'd need to turn it off to
check. I'm not mucking about with mine!

OK, I tried it, but every position seemed to point
East. I suspect I have been given a Southern
Hemisphere motor with a most westerly satellite
position of 100.5 E. Changing my longitude would
confirm this. I suppose I could add reference
positions manually, but these are lost when the motor
is reset. I'll leave it to you if you want to check
by turning off USALS.

One thing I haven't done is set limits. I couldn't get the tube off to
access the hardware stops, but there's an option in the motor
configuration menu I haven't tried yet.

I set these through the menu. The limits stop you
from driving too far when you send a "move
continuously" command but they only affect Receiver
commands - the manual button on the motor can still go
past those limits.

Post by law1
Hope all this is not too confusing and that it makes the scenario a bit
clearer.

One tip that may be worthwhile is that there's an alternative software
for the box on the Telsky site.
http://www.telsky.de/index8582.html?nav=DVB_S,de,5-5
The 230HD is the actual equivalent of the Ross, but software's the same
on the 220HD. It's the file dated 30.06.10 (actually version 1.0.7),
upgradeable over USB from the menu. John Legon has tried this and found
some improvements over the Ross versions. In another thread here, he
reports it lists 40 satellites, (against only 10 for the Ross firmware)
so loading that could save you a lot of manual work.
You need to upgrade to V1.0.7 anyway to cure DVB-S2 HD decoding
problems. It hasn't appeared on the Ross site yet, but their tech
support will send you a copy on request. The Telsky version could be a
better option, though. If I hadn't already manually programmed or
updated the 20 satellites I can receive from 28E to 30W, I'd switch myself.

John's extracted list shows only about 10 of the
positions I can receive - still more than the Ross
default list. You might get more if you can see
eastwards of 28E.

[Java Jive]

I suspect that this may be the satellites.xml problem. It would be
interesting to examine the file used by this receiver.

Every quarter or so, I remake the satellites.xml file used by the
Alignment Settings Calculator I linked previously. I generate a new
one at ...
http://satellites-xml.eu
... cross-check it against the old version and ...
http://www.lyngsat.com/
http://www.satbeams.com/satellites (formerly SatCoDX)
... then for the published version I remove the transponder details
(the Calc page doesn't need them and a smaller file loads quicker).

I would offer to publish the current uncrunched one, but it dates from
May - it's obviously about time I updated it, but I'm rather busy
just now - so perhaps it would be better to create a new one from
scratch. This is simple to do at the site above, and there is an
option to choose from a range, which is perfect for a rotor.

Post by Jim
OK, I tried it, but every position seemed to point
East. I suspect I have been given a Southern
Hemisphere motor with a most westerly satellite
position of 100.5 E. Changing my longitude would
confirm this. I suppose I could add reference
positions manually, but these are lost when the motor
is reset. I'll leave it to you if you want to check
by turning off USALS.

...

Post by Jim
John's extracted list shows only about 10 of the
positions I can receive - still more than the Ross
default list. You might get more if you can see
eastwards of 28E.

[law1]

Thanks a lot for all that info.

To begin, took a chance and downloaded and installed the TelSKY
software.
Panic at first - would not scan for any channels, still listed only ten
satellites and locked up several times. Problem solved by selecting
factory reset.

Rx now displays a TelSKY welcome screen when switched on.
Lists 40 satellites
One button press selects the channel, which is good! Haven't noticed any
other changes.

I intended to reset the motor at true south and start over again, but we
are being blasted tonight [Tuesday] with heavy rain and severe gales.
The dish may even have moved slightly as the Astra [28East] signal
strength is down and the others are even lower and I didn't actually
tighten everything fully.
I will try tomorrow night and report back.

P.S. I used the North Star to get the motor position to true south, is
this often used?


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

[John Legon]

Post by law1
Thanks a lot for all that info.
To begin, took a chance and downloaded and installed the TelSKY
software.

Bravo !

Post by law1
Panic at first - would not scan for any channels, still listed only ten
satellites and locked up several times. Problem solved by selecting
factory reset.
Rx now displays a TelSKY welcome screen when switched on.
Lists 40 satellites
One button press selects the channel, which is good! Haven't noticed any
other changes.

You probably missed my recent comments in another thread, about the need
to do a factory reset after installing the TelSKY firmware (see "B&Q
expands Ross sat kit range"). To recap, the changes I've noticed are:

Channel selection from a list requires one button press instead of two.

Timer settings use start and end times instead of start and duration.

When recording, the flashing red light and elapsed time disappear from
the screen after a few seconds, but return when a button is pressed.

The names of some of the favourites lists are different and now
match the icons, e.g. football player = sport & ! lifestyle

Transponder data for about 40 satellites is pre-programmed as against
only 10 satellites with the Ross.

The Telsky has a cheery welcome screen :)

Post by law1
I intended to reset the motor at true south and start over again, but we
are being blasted tonight [Tuesday] with heavy rain and severe gales.
The dish may even have moved slightly as the Astra [28East] signal
strength is down and the others are even lower and I didn't actually
tighten everything fully.
I will try tomorrow night and report back.

I'll be very interested to know how you get on. Jim's posts show that
it can be done, but there are still questions about some of the options
for the motor configuration, especially if you're attempting a basic
DiSEqC 1.2 installation rather than USALS.

Post by law1
P.S. I used the North Star to get the motor position to true south, is
this often used?

I've not heard of this being done, but it sounds like a good idea - if
you can catch a glimpse of Polaris in this weather, that is...

[Java Jive]

No, I've never heard of using the North Star before, perhaps because
it's about 3/4deg off True North, which is not a good starting point,
because by the time you add in the inevitable human error aligning to
it, you may be a degree or more off where you want to be, which is too
much really.

Many people use the sun, but, while in principle it can be very
accurate, there are many pitfalls to its use. See 'Common Errors ...'
under the heading 'Using The Sun' in my introduction to satellite DIY:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/SatelliteTV/SatelliteGeneral.html

How accurate are the alignment tools that use internet mapping? They
vary*, but if you use a good one, they should be accurate enough. If
you happen to have convenient landmarks (which I don't) in the middle
to far distance that happen to lie directly on the required azimuth as
shown by the marker on a good calculator page with internet mapping,
and as long as you allow for any perspective distortion there may be
in the satellite images of your local area, then that's probably as
accurate a way as any.

* The first thing to note is that AFAIAA they all, including my own,
do their geometry assuming a spherical Earth, which introduces some
inaccuracy from the start. I've checked a good range of the output of
my own calculator against figures given by the 'Inverse' calculator on
the US National Geodetic Survey ...
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/Inv_Fwd/inverse.prl
... and while the average agreement is pretty good, I hope at some
point in the future to improve it - really I'd like to get the error
of the entire system to 1/10 deg or less.
Max: 0.1856
Ave: 0.1150

I've also checked the Ordnance Survey map on mine against the Google
map on mine and others. For reasons too complicated to explain here
and which are unrelated to anything I or others might do, I would not
expect absolute agreement between the two, but actually on mine it's
good enough for aligning a satellite dish. For five points across the
UK:
Max: 0.050
Ave: 0.036

When I was using the OpenLayers API to load Google, the error between
the two maps was almost double over the same five points:
Max: 0.086
Ave: 0.064

Dishpointer's main site is bigger again, but still fit for purpose:
Max: 0.107
Ave: 0.080

But, strangely, last time I tested it a year or more ago, the widget
that DP supply for embedding into 3rd Party pages is, IMV, not
accurate enough. For example w w w . uksatellitehelp . co . uk
(munged because I don't want search engine crawlers to pick up a link
to a site that I consider inadequate) ...
Max: 0.960
Ave: 0.365
... and in a page I built especially to test it:
Max: 0.875
Ave: 0.538

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 23:40:40 +0000, law1

Post by law1
P.S. I used the North Star to get the motor position to true south, is
this often used?

[Jim]

Post by law1
Thanks a lot for all that info.
To begin, took a chance and downloaded and installed the TelSKY
software.
Panic at first - would not scan for any channels, still listed only ten
satellites and locked up several times. Problem solved by selecting
factory reset.
Rx now displays a TelSKY welcome screen when switched on.
Lists 40 satellites
One button press selects the channel, which is good! Haven't noticed any
other changes.
I intended to reset the motor at true south and start over again, but we
are being blasted tonight [Tuesday] with heavy rain and severe gales.
The dish may even have moved slightly as the Astra [28East] signal
strength is down and the others are even lower and I didn't actually
tighten everything fully.
I will try tomorrow night and report back.

The roofing contractors working across the road have
just packed up for the day. I heard one of the
ladders crash to the ground a while ago. It's not so
bad if you're working at ground level, otherwise, best
wait until it's safe.

Post by law1
P.S. I used the North Star to get the motor position to true south, is
this often used?

Not many people would attempt alignment in the dark.
(Unless there's a football match about to start.)

I used dishpointer.com to get a line of sight from my
dish position to the target satellite (Thor 5 or AB3).
The line crossed a visible landmark (the corner of
next door's garage) - pointing the dish arm at this
gave a good enough approximation to South for lining
up the dish at zero on the motor scale.

Once the receiver is set onto the target, the motor
will move a bit and you can start aligning. It helps
that you already have the elevation set, so rotation
should pick up the signal.

[law1]

;515406']law1 wrote:-
Thanks a lot for all that info.
To begin, took a chance and downloaded and installed the TelSKY
software.
Panic at first - would not scan for any channels, still listed only ten
satellites and locked up several times. Problem solved by selecting
factory reset.
Rx now displays a TelSKY welcome screen when switched on.
Lists 40 satellites
One button press selects the channel, which is good! Haven't noticed any
other changes.
I intended to reset the motor at true south and start over again, but we
are being blasted tonight [Tuesday] with heavy rain and severe gales.
The dish may even have moved slightly as the Astra [28East] signal
strength is down and the others are even lower and I didn't actually
tighten everything fully.
I will try tomorrow night and report back.-
The roofing contractors working across the road have
just packed up for the day. I heard one of the
ladders crash to the ground a while ago. It's not so
bad if you're working at ground level, otherwise, best
wait until it's safe.
-
P.S. I used the North Star to get the motor position to true south, is
this often used?
-
Not many people would attempt alignment in the dark.
(Unless there's a football match about to start.)
I used dishpointer.com to get a line of sight from my
dish position to the target satellite (Thor 5 or AB3).
The line crossed a visible landmark (the corner of
next door's garage) - pointing the dish arm at this
gave a good enough approximation to South for lining
up the dish at zero on the motor scale.
Once the receiver is set onto the target, the motor
will move a bit and you can start aligning. It helps
that you already have the elevation set, so rotation
should pick up the signal.

Should have elaborated a bit more about getting true south. I used
Polaris when setting up my original Jaegar 36v HH mount (which was no
problem at all and it is still working after fifteen years (I did
replace the motor about nine years ago) Got the tip in What Satellite
Magazine and it worked fine! At that time I etched a permanent line on
the steel pole in anticipation of further use. Did it at night and it
was no problem, simply illuminated the bottom third of the pole, lined
up the star, marked the pole at the bottom and carried the line up to
the top using a spirit level. Fifteen years ago it was the only advice I
had.

Tonight I tweaked the dish tightened all bolts and logged satellites
manually at 30west, 13, 19 and 28east all showing around 66% signal
strength I'm using the 65cm dish that came with the Ross rx. Weather has
turned the same as last night, but not quite as windy. I am leaving
things as they are and will continue tomorrow or Friday.
Finally not drag this out any more this is what I will do next.
Point the dish at true south
Press the reset button on the motor
Enter my co-ordinated for USALS use
Enable DiSEqC on all options including all satellites

At this point what should I do, as this is where I seem to be getting
lost.

Thanks again and I hope the next post on the subject will be my last and
it will be to exclaim to the world that things are working.

P.S. Photo attached is what the rx shows when tuned to a radio station,
there is no screensaver as there was with the Ross software.
Incidentally with the Ross software the TV/Radio button didn't toggle
the two options and the timeshift option doesn't seem to be available
now.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: TelSKY.jpg |
|Download: http://www.homecinemabanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=77|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

[John Legon]

Post by law1
Tonight I tweaked the dish tightened all bolts and logged satellites
manually at 30west, 13, 19 and 28east all showing around 66% signal
strength I'm using the 65cm dish that came with the Ross rx. Weather has
turned the same as last night, but not quite as windy. I am leaving
things as they are and will continue tomorrow or Friday.
Finally not drag this out any more this is what I will do next.
Point the dish at true south
Press the reset button on the motor
Enter my co-ordinated for USALS use
Enable DiSEqC on all options including all satellites
At this point what should I do, as this is where I seem to be getting
lost.

You shouldn't need to do anything more. The dish should move after you
press OK to select a channel from a list for a satellite different to
the previously selected satellite.

My advice would be:

1. Drive the motor to 0 on the scale and reset it.

2. Forget about the motor configuration menu. Just set latitude
and longitude in the USALS menu and turn USALS on.

3. Go to the antenna configuration menu and make sure that DiSEqC 1.2 is
set for the satellites you want. Now, when you change the selected
satellite in the antenna menu, the dish should move. If it doesn't
move then you've got a problem.

Post by law1
P.S. Photo attached is what the rx shows when tuned to a radio station,
there is no screensaver as there was with the Ross software.

I'd forgotten about that...

Post by law1
Incidentally with the Ross software the TV/Radio button didn't toggle
the two options and the timeshift option doesn't seem to be available
now.

Timeshifting works, and the option to delete the timeshift file will be
found in the OSD control menu, together with the option to turn on the
front-panel clock when the box is in standby. You can of course revert
to the Ross firmware by downloading the IMG file from their website.

[law1]

Post by law1
-
Tonight I tweaked the dish tightened all bolts and logged satellites
manually at 30west, 13, 19 and 28east all showing around 66% signal
strength I'm using the 65cm dish that came with the Ross rx. Weathe
has
turned the same as last night, but not quite as windy. I am leaving
things as they are and will continue tomorrow or Friday.
Finally not drag this out any more this is what I will do next.
Point the dish at true south
Press the reset button on the motor
Enter my co-ordinated for USALS use
Enable DiSEqC on all options including all satellites
At this point what should I do, as this is where I seem to be getting
lost.-
You shouldn't need to do anything more. The dish should move after you
press OK to select a channel from a list for a satellite different to
the previously selected satellite.
1. Drive the motor to 0 on the scale and reset it.
2. Forget about the motor configuration menu. Just set latitude
and longitude in the USALS menu and turn USALS on.
3. Go to the antenna configuration menu and make sure that DiSEqC 1.2 i
set for the satellites you want. Now, when you change the selected
satellite in the antenna menu, the dish should move. If it doesn't
move then you've got a problem.
-
P.S. Photo attached is what the rx shows when tuned to a radio station,
there is no screensaver as there was with the Ross software.-
John L

Good news at las

+-------------------------------------------------------------------
+-------------------------------------------------------------------


--
law1

[Jim]

Good news at last

Did you need to set the latitude to "South"?

[law1]

-
Good news at last
-
Did you need to set the latitude to "South"?

I did indeed, and all is working well...sort of. I have a problem this
evening with the rx locking up on a channel on Astra 3A and I cannot
scan or delete any satellite. Not sure what to do - leave thing as they
are, do a factory reset or reinstall the Ross software, if that is the
problem. I have all satellites set up and don't really want to go
through all that setting up again. Anyone else have these problems. Mind
you the Ross software used to lock up occasionally too!


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

[John Legon]

Post by law1

Post by Jim
Did you need to set the latitude to "South"?

I did indeed, and all is working well...sort of. I have a problem this
evening with the rx locking up on a channel on Astra 3A and I cannot
scan or delete any satellite. Not sure what to do - leave thing as they
are, do a factory reset or reinstall the Ross software, if that is the
problem. I have all satellites set up and don't really want to go
through all that setting up again. Anyone else have these problems. Mind
you the Ross software used to lock up occasionally too!

It's good to know that you've solved the problem with the motor.

I scanned Astra 3 at 23.5 E a while ago without any difficulty, but have
just checked and find that I had only entered transponder data for the
3B satellite. AFAIK the UK is outside the foot-print for Astra 3A and
the signal is very weak. Even so, I thought I'd try the transponders
with FTA channels:

12658 V - no signal registered
12525 V - signal quality 42 %. A scan brought in the two FTA TV
channels, but since the picture was breaking up I deleted them.

I know the Ross can lock up on a very weak signal, but I've never been
in a situation where I couldn't delete a channel or satellite. I don't
think that going back to the Ross software will make any difference.

BTW, it's possible to scan a selection of up to 20 transponders at a
time when in the transponder menu. This may be useful if there's a
problem with a particular transponder. It may also help to scan for
FTA only rather than "FTA + NIT".

[law1]

At 00:24:33 Thu, 25 Nov 2010, law1 wrote:-
'Jim Wrote: -
[color=blue][i][color=green][i]
It's good to know that you've solved the problem with the motor.
I scanned Astra 3 at 23.5 E a while ago without any difficulty, but have
just checked and find that I had only entered transponder data for the
3B satellite. AFAIK the UK is outside the foot-print for Astra 3A and
the signal is very weak. Even so, I thought I'd try the transponders
12658 V - no signal registered
12525 V - signal quality 42 %. A scan brought in the two FTA TV
channels, but since the picture was breaking up I deleted them.
I know the Ross can lock up on a very weak signal, but I've never been
in a situation where I couldn't delete a channel or satellite. I don't
think that going back to the Ross software will make any difference.
BTW, it's possible to scan a selection of up to 20 transponders at a
time when in the transponder menu. This may be useful if there's a
problem with a particular transponder. It may also help to scan for
FTA only rather than "FTA + NIT".
--
John L

Hi John L,

That locking up problem happened again and the satellite is Astra 3B,
scanned for 3A but got nothing. At least two channels on 3B have caused
the lockup to occur so I deleted them. BTW since last night I can scan
and delete satellites once again. I have finished storing satellites
this evening. This is the final lineup using the Ross 65cm dish.

1, 5 & 30 West
5, 10, 13, 16, 19.2, 24.5 & 28.2 East

I used the sat list in What Sat magazine because it gives the approx
dish size to use.
Are there any other satellites that might be available, but not listed
in the mag. I have looked at the Lyngsat list and a few others, but they
don't suggest dish sizes for particular locations.

When scanning, why do some added transponders trigger the box to load
additional transponders that are available while others don't. Is this
what you referred to in your post quoted above.

I am using a Panasonic TX-P42G10B TV (Freesat built in) with the Ross
box in series with the TV. The HD test channels on Astra 3B give some
very high quality pictures compared to ITV1 or BBC HD. The logo states
Astra HD +, might this be higher quality than BBC/ITV transmissions.

Time to wrap up for now and hope no more problems crop up, thanks again
to everyone.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

[John Legon]

Post by law1

Post by John Legon
I know the Ross can lock up on a very weak signal, but I've never been
in a situation where I couldn't delete a channel or satellite. I don't
think that going back to the Ross software will make any difference.
BTW, it's possible to scan a selection of up to 20 transponders at a
time when in the transponder menu. This may be useful if there's a
problem with a particular transponder. It may also help to scan for
FTA only rather than "FTA + NIT".

Hi John L,

Greetings!

Post by law1
That locking up problem happened again and the satellite is Astra 3B,
scanned for 3A but got nothing. At least two channels on 3B have caused
the lockup to occur so I deleted them. BTW since last night I can scan
and delete satellites once again. I have finished storing satellites
this evening. This is the final lineup using the Ross 65cm dish.
1, 5 & 30 West
5, 10, 13, 16, 19.2, 24.5 & 28.2 East
I used the sat list in What Sat magazine because it gives the approx
dish size to use.

I think Wotsat is conservative as regards dish sizes.

Post by law1
Are there any other satellites that might be available, but not listed
in the mag. I have looked at the Lyngsat list and a few others, but they
don't suggest dish sizes for particular locations.

Two satellites that you might add to the above list are Eurobird 9A at
9 East (for the 3D demos) and Turksat at 42 East.

Post by law1
When scanning, why do some added transponders trigger the box to load
additional transponders that are available while others don't. Is this
what you referred to in your post quoted above.

If you do a scan for "FTA + NIT" then the receiver will find additional
transponders in the "Network Information Table" (if available) and add
them to the list.

Post by law1
I am using a Panasonic TX-P42G10B TV (Freesat built in) with the Ross
box in series with the TV. The HD test channels on Astra 3B give some
very high quality pictures compared to ITV1 or BBC HD. The logo states
Astra HD +, might this be higher quality than BBC/ITV transmissions.

The Astra HD demo on 23.5 East shows what HD TV was originally supposed
to be, but sadly isn't anymore (at least not with BBC HD), with the full
1920 x 1080 resolution. The Astra HD channel on 19.2 East is also worth
a look (when it's running) since although the resolution is 1440 x 1080,
the bit rates seem to peak at around 16,000 Kb/s as compared to 9700 Kb/s
for BBC/One HD.

[Jim]

Post by John Legon

Post by law1

Post by John Legon
I know the Ross can lock up on a very weak signal, but I've never been
in a situation where I couldn't delete a channel or satellite. I don't
think that going back to the Ross software will make any difference.
BTW, it's possible to scan a selection of up to 20 transponders at a
time when in the transponder menu. This may be useful if there's a
problem with a particular transponder. It may also help to scan for
FTA only rather than "FTA + NIT".

Hi John L,

Greetings!

Post by law1
That locking up problem happened again and the satellite is Astra 3B,
scanned for 3A but got nothing. At least two channels on 3B have caused
the lockup to occur so I deleted them. BTW since last night I can scan
and delete satellites once again. I have finished storing satellites
this evening. This is the final lineup using the Ross 65cm dish.
1, 5 & 30 West
5, 10, 13, 16, 19.2, 24.5 & 28.2 East
I used the sat list in What Sat magazine because it gives the approx
dish size to use.

I think Wotsat is conservative as regards dish sizes.

Post by law1
Are there any other satellites that might be available, but not listed
in the mag. I have looked at the Lyngsat list and a few others, but they
don't suggest dish sizes for particular locations.

Two satellites that you might add to the above list are Eurobird 9A at
9 East (for the 3D demos) and Turksat at 42 East.

Astra 3A has no coverage of UK, I think. 3B, if you
add it back, has a number of Dutch regional channels -
the only FTA Dutch ones I have seen.

7 East is worth a scan. The Spot A beam is a bit weak
for me (near Glasgow) but still OK and has a few
channels of interest, including some that show live
football, albeit with poor picture quality. 9 East,
as mentioned, has quite a few FTA channels, as does
39, but I can't get that far East myself.

In the West, you should also be able to pick up
satellites at 8, 11, 12.5, 15, 22, 24.5 and 27.5,
though there's not a lot of useful content - some of
these are only used for feeds. While 12.5 is the only
one I might watch, the signal at my location is
marginal, but it's a good test of alignment. The HD
channels at 22 are an oddity.

Post by John Legon

Post by law1
When scanning, why do some added transponders trigger the box to load
additional transponders that are available while others don't. Is this
what you referred to in your post quoted above.

If you do a scan for "FTA + NIT" then the receiver will find additional
transponders in the "Network Information Table" (if available) and add
them to the list.

Post by law1
I am using a Panasonic TX-P42G10B TV (Freesat built in) with the Ross
box in series with the TV. The HD test channels on Astra 3B give some
very high quality pictures compared to ITV1 or BBC HD. The logo states
Astra HD +, might this be higher quality than BBC/ITV transmissions.

The Astra HD demo on 23.5 East shows what HD TV was originally supposed
to be, but sadly isn't anymore (at least not with BBC HD), with the full
1920 x 1080 resolution. The Astra HD channel on 19.2 East is also worth
a look (when it's running) since although the resolution is 1440 x 1080,
the bit rates seem to peak at around 16,000 Kb/s as compared to 9700 Kb/s
for BBC/One HD.

On 28E, STV and one of the ITV HD channels are
1920x1080 (actually reported as 1088) but the bit rate
may not be any higher. There are a few other "Full
HD" channels around the other satellites.

[John Legon]

At 09:56:55 Mon, 6 Dec 2010, Jim <***@any.net> wrote:
[...]

Post by Jim
Astra 3A has no coverage of UK, I think. 3B, if you
add it back, has a number of Dutch regional channels -
the only FTA Dutch ones I have seen.

Well, there's BVN at 19E.

The different footprints of the various beams from a given satellite
cluster are of course something to be aware of when scanning the
transponders. I was disappointed when scanning 42E recently to find that
half the transponders in the receiver's list didn't give any result -
the reason being that the channels were beamed to the east of Europe...

Another problem is that positions and names of satellites are not always
what they used to be. Satellite #27 in the Telsky list is Sirius 3/2
and the position is 5.0 East. Wotsat magazine gives Sirius 2/3 as the
name and the position as 5.2 East. Lyngsat refers to the satellite by
the present name of Astra 4A and places it at 4.8 East.

Now when I scanned this satellite the signal peaked at around 4.4 East,
and I thought my motor calibration might be a bit off. This morning,
however, one of the channels showed a service card which gave the name
Astra 4A and position of 4.5 East, so I reckon my estimate of the where
the satellite actually is, is actually quite accurate...

[J G Miller]

Astra 3A has no coverage of UK, I think. 3B, if you add it back, has a
number of Dutch regional channels - the only FTA Dutch ones I have seen.

You have overlooked BVN TV Europe, the combined NOS/VRT station which is FTA
from

Eutelsat Hotbird 6 at 13,0° East transponder 115
10,815 GHz Horizontal
SR: 27 500 FEC: 5/6 SID: 17311

and from

SES Astra 1L at 19,2° East transponder 109
12,574 GHz Horizontal
SR: 22 000 FEC: 5/6 SID: 5025

Also for a list of HD stations, there is a good summary at

<http://en.kingofsat.NET/hdtv.php>

and for a list of 3D stations, similarly at

<http://en.kingofsat.NET/3dtv.php>

[Jim]

Post by law1

-
Good news at last
-
Did you need to set the latitude to "South"?

I did indeed, and all is working well...sort of. I have a problem this
evening with the rx locking up on a channel on Astra 3A and I cannot
scan or delete any satellite. Not sure what to do - leave thing as they
are, do a factory reset or reinstall the Ross software, if that is the
problem. I have all satellites set up and don't really want to go
through all that setting up again. Anyone else have these problems. Mind
you the Ross software used to lock up occasionally too!

I have had lock-ups on specific channels. Sometimes
it's a feature the box doesn't like (e.g. BBC HD
subtitles > ON) but I have also had it lock up just
when selecting a channel. It's quite annoying,
because the box is still tuned to the channel when you
re-boot - if you change channel as soon as the display
changes but before signal lock is achieved, you can
get out of it that way. Possibly, you could also
disconnect the LNB - that might stop it trying to
tune. Either way, you can then get access to the Menu
and delete the offending channel or transponder.

I bet it was channel CT24 on Astra 3A (11525V). I'm
sure that one locked up my box, too. Luckily, it's
only happened once or twice. That Czech mux lists
PDC, VPS (European version of PDC) and EPG as
additional services - maybe the box doesn't like
something in one of those Teletext streams.

This is with the Ross software.

[Jim]

law1 wrote:
<<snip>>

Post by law1
Tonight I tweaked the dish tightened all bolts and logged satellites
manually at 30west, 13, 19 and 28east all showing around 66% signal
strength I'm using the 65cm dish that came with the Ross rx. Weather has
turned the same as last night, but not quite as windy. I am leaving
things as they are and will continue tomorrow or Friday.
Finally not drag this out any more this is what I will do next.
Point the dish at true south
Press the reset button on the motor
Enter my co-ordinated for USALS use
Enable DiSEqC on all options including all satellites
At this point what should I do, as this is where I seem to be getting
lost.

DiSEqC 1.2 is the option.
Both John and I have now had to change USALS latitude
setting to South, so this is looking like a receiver
bug. You will probably need to do the same.
That should be enough. It should just work after that.
You can use the motor config menu to check your
alignment. Move East then West until the signal falls
off - if it's about the same number of steps each way,
you're bang on.

66% seems very good. I can only get that on a few HD
channels. 63% is the max I get for all others. You
should have a chance of even the weaker satellites.
How far East can you go?

Post by law1
P.S. Photo attached is what the rx shows when tuned to a radio station,
there is no screensaver as there was with the Ross software.
Incidentally with the Ross software the TV/Radio button didn't toggle
the two options and the timeshift option doesn't seem to be available
now.

In addition to John's comment in another post about
restoring the Ross software, you can get a copy of the
V1.0.7 BIN file from Ross tech support - this upgrades
from the menu and shouldn't change your channel
programming if you don't reset. The IMG file from the
web-site may wipe out everything.

[John Legon]

Post by Jim
In addition to John's comment in another post about
restoring the Ross software, you can get a copy of the
V1.0.7 BIN file from Ross tech support - this upgrades
from the menu and shouldn't change your channel
programming if you don't reset. The IMG file from the
web-site may wipe out everything.

Although you don't loose the settings when applying the 1.0.7 Ross
upgrade to the previous Ross version, I think a factory reset is
needed when going from the Ross to the Telsky and vice versa,
because the satellite lists are not compatible.

The Ross IMG file is a good way to get back to square one since it is
installed by the boot-loader, and doesn't depend on the upgrade option
in the USB menu being functional.

As regards motors and signal levels, I'm getting healthy figures across
the arc from 42 E to 30 W straight off from my initial alignment to 13E.
I've just scanned 30 W and get 60% for most of the usable transponders -
this being close to the maximum for DVB-S on the Ross scale as we know.

The dish moves quite quickly between 13, 19 and 28 E, but the 72 degree
sweep from 42 E to 30 W obviously takes a lot longer. On the whole,
it's a credible alternative to using a DiSEqC switch when you know what
to expect, and more flexible in the satellites that can be picked up.

[Jim]

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
In addition to John's comment in another post about
restoring the Ross software, you can get a copy of the
V1.0.7 BIN file from Ross tech support - this upgrades
from the menu and shouldn't change your channel
programming if you don't reset. The IMG file from the
web-site may wipe out everything.

Although you don't loose the settings when applying the 1.0.7 Ross
upgrade to the previous Ross version, I think a factory reset is
needed when going from the Ross to the Telsky and vice versa,
because the satellite lists are not compatible.

Also, the different options may cause a problem with
settings.

Post by John Legon
The Ross IMG file is a good way to get back to square one since it is
installed by the boot-loader, and doesn't depend on the upgrade option
in the USB menu being functional.
As regards motors and signal levels, I'm getting healthy figures across
the arc from 42 E to 30 W straight off from my initial alignment to 13E.
I've just scanned 30 W and get 60% for most of the usable transponders -
this being close to the maximum for DVB-S on the Ross scale as we know.

I "moved" that satellite to 30.3 W to get 63%. Try
moving it a few steps West in the Motor Config menu.

Post by John Legon
The dish moves quite quickly between 13, 19 and 28 E, but the 72 degree
sweep from 42 E to 30 W obviously takes a lot longer. On the whole,
it's a credible alternative to using a DiSEqC switch when you know what
to expect, and more flexible in the satellites that can be picked up.

[John Legon]

Post by Jim

Post by John Legon
As regards motors and signal levels, I'm getting healthy figures across
the arc from 42 E to 30 W straight off from my initial alignment to 13E.
I've just scanned 30 W and get 60% for most of the usable transponders -
this being close to the maximum for DVB-S on the Ross scale as we know.

I "moved" that satellite to 30.3 W to get 63%. Try
moving it a few steps West in the Motor Config menu.

I tried tweaking the longitude but it made no difference - the USALS
bearing is pretty much spot on. However, nudging the dish showed that
the elevation at 30 W was a bit off. My pole isn't strictly vertical!

[John Legon]

Post by Jim

Post by law1
Ross HDR-6110USB HD Satellite Receiver
Moteck SG2100A DiSEqC motor
Has anyone sucessfully set up this rx and motor. The rx manual doesn't
go into sufficient detail for me to complete the job.

Yes, I have set up that box with a clone of the
Moteck. (Icecrypt - manual is identical to one
downloaded from the Moteck site). You are certainly
right about the Ross manual.

[...]

Post by Jim

Post by law1
As I see it, whether or not the OP uses DisEqC 1.2 or USALS to position
the dish, DiSEqC 1.2 should be selected in the Antenna configuration -
something which isn't made clear in the Ross manual.
Whether this will solve the problem is another matter...

That is correct. I have selected DiSEqC 1.2 for each
satellite (else the motor won't move when the
satellite's selected), and turned USALS on with my
latitude/longitude settings. That's really all you
need. Except, for my combination, the motor moved
West when it should have turned East, so I changed
latitude to South and now it's OK.

Wonderful! Yesterday morning I succumbed to temptation and
clicked on "Buy now with one-click" on an Amazon web page.
Consequently, a Technomate TM-2600 Super DiSEqC motor arrived
at my front door a couple of hours ago. I have already tested
it "on the bench" and it is clear that it works just fine with
the Ross receiver using USALS. I haven't so much as looked at
the motor configuration menu, let alone make any changes.

The rotor is automatically driven to the correct angle on the
scale when a channel is selected for a satellite different to
the previous satellite/channel.

However, as you say, the motor moves to the west when it should
move to the east and vice versa. I don't know whether I've got
a southern hemisphere motor, whether the receiver firmware was
intended to be used with a southern hemisphere motor and the
Technomate is intended for the northern hemisphere, or whether
the programmer lacked a sense of direction.

It doesn't much matter since I can either edit the satellite
positions or pretend to be living south of the equator.

Frankly, I don't see any need to get an accurate fix on true
south when setting up the dish for USALS, and the instructions
indeed state that - unlike with the DiSEqC 1.2 set-up - it is
only necessary to start with the dish pointing roughly south.

I could also very easily choose a satellite such as Hotbird at
13E for the initial alignment, rather than one close to due
south. The receiver will drive the dish to the correct angle,
after which it will be a just matter of rotating the motor/dish
assembly on the pole to get the best signal.

Can't see myself using the motor much though - DiSEqC switching
between multiple LNBs is so much quicker...

[Java Jive]

Could you please measure the crank angle and post it by reply?
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/SatelliteTV/SatelliteAnalysisSettings.html#CrankFormulae

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 13:35:22 +0000, John Legon

Post by John Legon
Wonderful! Yesterday morning I succumbed to temptation and
clicked on "Buy now with one-click" on an Amazon web page.
Consequently, a Technomate TM-2600 Super DiSEqC motor arrived
at my front door a couple of hours ago.

[John Legon]

Post by Java Jive
Could you please measure the crank angle and post it by reply?

As shown by the Technomate diagrams, the angle of the bend in motor
shaft is just 30 degrees.

I set up the motor with the Ross dish and receiver this afternoon, by
the way, and it works really well :-)

Post by Java Jive

Post by John Legon
Wonderful! Yesterday morning I succumbed to temptation and
clicked on "Buy now with one-click" on an Amazon web page.
Consequently, a Technomate TM-2600 Super DiSEqC motor arrived
at my front door a couple of hours ago.

[Java Jive]

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 17:02:08 +0000, John Legon

Post by John Legon

Post by Java Jive
Could you please measure the crank angle and post it by reply?

As shown by the Technomate diagrams, the angle of the bend in motor
shaft is just 30 degrees.

Good, that agrees exactly with what I'd previously calculated it to be
from their set up instructions, and is what my calculator uses. Thanks
for the confirmation.

Post by John Legon
I set up the motor with the Ross dish and receiver this afternoon, by
the way, and it works really well :-)

Well done. Presumably that's with the foreign firmware tho'? We
could do with knowing how to do it with the original Ross firmware, as
someone else is bound to come along and ask, and they may not be keen
to risk invalidating the warranty by flashing the firmware.

[Jim]

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim

Post by law1
Ross HDR-6110USB HD Satellite Receiver
Moteck SG2100A DiSEqC motor
Has anyone sucessfully set up this rx and motor. The rx manual doesn't
go into sufficient detail for me to complete the job.

Yes, I have set up that box with a clone of the
Moteck. (Icecrypt - manual is identical to one
downloaded from the Moteck site). You are certainly
right about the Ross manual.

[...]

Post by Jim

Post by law1
As I see it, whether or not the OP uses DisEqC 1.2 or USALS to position
the dish, DiSEqC 1.2 should be selected in the Antenna configuration -
something which isn't made clear in the Ross manual.
Whether this will solve the problem is another matter...

That is correct. I have selected DiSEqC 1.2 for each
satellite (else the motor won't move when the
satellite's selected), and turned USALS on with my
latitude/longitude settings. That's really all you
need. Except, for my combination, the motor moved
West when it should have turned East, so I changed
latitude to South and now it's OK.

Wonderful! Yesterday morning I succumbed to temptation and
clicked on "Buy now with one-click" on an Amazon web page.
Consequently, a Technomate TM-2600 Super DiSEqC motor arrived
at my front door a couple of hours ago. I have already tested
it "on the bench" and it is clear that it works just fine with
the Ross receiver using USALS. I haven't so much as looked at
the motor configuration menu, let alone make any changes.
The rotor is automatically driven to the correct angle on the
scale when a channel is selected for a satellite different to
the previous satellite/channel.
However, as you say, the motor moves to the west when it should
move to the east and vice versa. I don't know whether I've got
a southern hemisphere motor, whether the receiver firmware was
intended to be used with a southern hemisphere motor and the
Technomate is intended for the northern hemisphere, or whether
the programmer lacked a sense of direction.
It doesn't much matter since I can either edit the satellite
positions or pretend to be living south of the equator.

That's the simplest solution - just one parameter
toggle. No need to edit the satellites.

It must be the receiver at fault. No doubt law1 will
confirm later that he has the same issue. Then I can
report the fault to Ross in the hope it will get
fixed, along with the audio problems.

I still haven't quite got my head round 1.2, though.
If my motor is actually the Northern Hemisphere one,
why wouldn't it go to the stored positions? Can you
confirm that works OK? Am I right in thinking the
receiver doesn't care about hemispheres in 1.2 mode?

I might end up with a PC-based receiver at some point
and these tend not to have USALS support, it seems,
only 1.2. It would be a pain having to manually store
each satellite position again after a motor reset, but
I suppose you'd just wait and adjust the first time
you selected a channel on a new satellite and failed
to get a lock. The adjustment is going to be about
the same for each satellite, isnt it? 10 steps East,
or whatever, depending on your own distance from the
prime meridian.

Post by John Legon
Frankly, I don't see any need to get an accurate fix on true
south when setting up the dish for USALS, and the instructions
indeed state that - unlike with the DiSEqC 1.2 set-up - it is
only necessary to start with the dish pointing roughly south.
I could also very easily choose a satellite such as Hotbird at
13E for the initial alignment, rather than one close to due
south. The receiver will drive the dish to the correct angle,
after which it will be a just matter of rotating the motor/dish
assembly on the pole to get the best signal.
Can't see myself using the motor much though - DiSEqC switching
between multiple LNBs is so much quicker...

The motor moves about 2 degrees per second. Switching
around the main satellites from 4.8E to 28.5E isn't
too bad. The worst thing is when you scan a
favourites list that isn't well organised.

[John Legon]

Post by Jim

Post by John Legon

Post by law1
Ross HDR-6110USB HD Satellite Receiver
Moteck SG2100A DiSEqC motor

[...]

Post by Jim

Post by John Legon
The rotor is automatically driven to the correct angle on the
scale when a channel is selected for a satellite different to
the previous satellite/channel.
However, as you say, the motor moves to the west when it should
move to the east and vice versa. I don't know whether I've got
a southern hemisphere motor, whether the receiver firmware was
intended to be used with a southern hemisphere motor and the
Technomate is intended for the northern hemisphere, or whether
the programmer lacked a sense of direction.
It doesn't much matter since I can either edit the satellite
positions or pretend to be living south of the equator.

That's the simplest solution - just one parameter
toggle. No need to edit the satellites.
It must be the receiver at fault. No doubt law1 will
confirm later that he has the same issue. Then I can
report the fault to Ross in the hope it will get
fixed, along with the audio problems.

I'm not yet convinced that the receiver is at fault, but will
try to test the motor later today using another satellite box.

BTW the Technomate TM-2600 looks the same as the Motek SG2100A,
but there's nothing on the packaging to say whether mine is meant
for the southern or northern hemisphere.

Post by Jim
I still haven't quite got my head round 1.2, though.
If my motor is actually the Northern Hemisphere one,
why wouldn't it go to the stored positions?

One possibility is that you haven't set software limits.
The TelSKY manual indicates that this needs to be done
when using DiSEqC 1.2 -

Achtung!
If you choose the DiSEqC 1.2 setting (mode of the digital
receiver with a rotating antenna with a DiSEqC 1.2 motor),
you must next set the eastern and western limits.

I'm thinking here that the default limits for 1.2 won't allow any
movement of the dish. Of course there's nothing about this in the
Ross manual.

Post by Jim
Can you
confirm that works OK? Am I right in thinking the
receiver doesn't care about hemispheres in 1.2 mode?

I'd rather not play with 1.2 for the time being, partly because I
have a working system and don't want to upset it, partly because
the Ross menu options are as clear as mud, and partly because I
don't want to lose the default settings on the motor - the reset
switch is a little awkward to get at once the motor is mounted.

Post by Jim
I might end up with a PC-based receiver at some point
and these tend not to have USALS support, it seems,
only 1.2.

Worth noting that the Technomate manual never mentions USALS -
even though the motor uses it - presumably because it would
require a licence. The same may apply to PC sat tuners.

[...]

Post by Jim

Post by John Legon
Can't see myself using the motor much though - DiSEqC switching
between multiple LNBs is so much quicker...

The motor moves about 2 degrees per second. Switching
around the main satellites from 4.8E to 28.5E isn't
too bad. The worst thing is when you scan a
favourites list that isn't well organised.

I have several satellites mixed up indiscriminately in my
favourites lists, and can zap between channels as if they
were all on the same satellite. That's not really possible
with a motor.

[John Legon]

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
It must be the receiver at fault. No doubt law1 will
confirm later that he has the same issue. Then I can
report the fault to Ross in the hope it will get
fixed, along with the audio problems.

I'm not yet convinced that the receiver is at fault, but will
try to test the motor later today using another satellite box.

OK, have just tried this and my other box moves the dish in the correct
direction. Hence the problem is not the motor but the Ross receiver.

Have only had to set the dish alignment for Hotbird using USALS and the
other satellites fall into place. Nice...

[Java Jive]

Has anyone managed to extract the satellites.xml (or possibly
satellites.ini) file from one of these receivers? I'd like to have a
look at it.

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 08:44:35 +0000, John Legon

Post by John Legon
OK, have just tried this and my other box moves the dish in the correct
direction. Hence the problem is not the motor but the Ross receiver.

[Jim]

<<snip>>

Post by John Legon
BTW the Technomate TM-2600 looks the same as the Motek SG2100A,
but there's nothing on the packaging to say whether mine is meant
for the southern or northern hemisphere.

I downloaded the manual from the Moteck web-site.
It's identical to the printed one that came in the box.
I think the only difference between versions would be
in the default programming.

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
I still haven't quite got my head round 1.2, though.
If my motor is actually the Northern Hemisphere one,
why wouldn't it go to the stored positions?

One possibility is that you haven't set software limits.
The TelSKY manual indicates that this needs to be done
when using DiSEqC 1.2 -
Achtung!
If you choose the DiSEqC 1.2 setting (mode of the digital
receiver with a rotating antenna with a DiSEqC 1.2 motor),
you must next set the eastern and western limits.
I'm thinking here that the default limits for 1.2 won't allow any
movement of the dish. Of course there's nothing about this in the
Ross manual.

Maybe, or else I should have applied limits only to
the satellites at the ends of the arc. Having to rely
on guesswork, I may have set a West limit to 28E by
mistake.

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
Can you
confirm that works OK? Am I right in thinking the
receiver doesn't care about hemispheres in 1.2 mode?

I'd rather not play with 1.2 for the time being, partly because I
have a working system and don't want to upset it, partly because
the Ross menu options are as clear as mud, and partly because I
don't want to lose the default settings on the motor - the reset
switch is a little awkward to get at once the motor is mounted.

I might try again. The system worked fine after I
switched USALS back on. I set the limits after
driving the motor past the ends of my arc and these
did stop the motor when set to "move continuously" in
the the config menu.

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
I might end up with a PC-based receiver at some point
and these tend not to have USALS support, it seems,
only 1.2.

Worth noting that the Technomate manual never mentions USALS -
even though the motor uses it - presumably because it would
require a licence. The same may apply to PC sat tuners.

They probably call it "Goto X" or similar.

Post by John Legon
[...]

<<snip>>

[Jim]

Post by Jim
<<snip>>

Post by John Legon
BTW the Technomate TM-2600 looks the same as the Motek SG2100A,
but there's nothing on the packaging to say whether mine is meant
for the southern or northern hemisphere.

I downloaded the manual from the Moteck web-site. It's identical to the
printed one that came in the box.
I think the only difference between versions would be in the default
programming.

Post by John Legon

I still haven't quite got my head round 1.2, though. If my motor is
actually the Northern Hemisphere one, why wouldn't it go to the
stored positions?

One possibility is that you haven't set software limits.
The TelSKY manual indicates that this needs to be done when using
DiSEqC 1.2 -
Achtung! If you choose the DiSEqC 1.2 setting (mode of the
digital receiver with a rotating antenna with a DiSEqC 1.2 motor),
you must next set the eastern and western limits.
I'm thinking here that the default limits for 1.2 won't allow any
movement of the dish. Of course there's nothing about this in the
Ross manual.

Maybe, or else I should have applied limits only to the satellites at
the ends of the arc. Having to rely on guesswork, I may have set a West
limit to 28E by mistake.

Post by John Legon

Can you confirm that works OK? Am I right in thinking the receiver
doesn't care about hemispheres in 1.2 mode?

I'd rather not play with 1.2 for the time being, partly because I
have a working system and don't want to upset it, partly because
the Ross menu options are as clear as mud, and partly because I
don't want to lose the default settings on the motor - the reset
switch is a little awkward to get at once the motor is mounted.

I might try again. The system worked fine after I switched USALS back
on. I set the limits after driving the motor past the ends of my arc
and these did stop the motor when set to "move continuously" in the the
config menu.

I had another go at this, and found enough to discover
the box can't work properly in 1.2 mode without the
receiver calculating the position (i.e. USALS mode).
Although the motor will turn to the pre-stored
position assigned to the satellite in the motor config
menu, I couldn't find any command to actually store a
new position or adjust an existing one. The last
command to re-calculate position just shifts the whole
arc around. Other receivers have commands for "store
n" (n=1 to 60 for this motor), "goto n" and "goto 0"
but these are all missing from the Ross menu, unless
they're hidden away somewhere.

Besides these omissions, there are also problems with
the position reference assigned in motor config. It
will only allow assignment of numbers between 1 and m,
where m-1 is the number of satellites stored in the
receiver, and position 1 (13 E by default) can only be
selected when setting up a new satellite (I think it's
the receiver default when no other position has been
assigned). I had to assign position k+1 in the menu
in order to select position k, though the menu shows k
when you re-select that satellite (though it can
change again later, I've noticed). Very frustrating.

For the satellites I could assign to pre-stored
positions (1 to 26), the receiver gave appropriate
commands to the motor. If I re-calculated on 0.8 W,
then 5W was also good, but 28 E and 30 W needed manual
adjustment to maximise signal strength. I'm guessing
that the motor's pre-stored positions are only
accurate at specific latitudes, and will generally
need minor adjustment, which, of course, isn't
possible with the Ross.

I don't know why the manufacturer would create a 1.2
positioning system as half-baked as this one seems to
be. Why bother with reference positions if the system
isn't going to be usable? Is the S220 menu any
different? The German manual doesn't suggest so. The
S2200 HD manual shows more clearly what a proper 1.2
menu should look like.

The good news is that the motor seems to work OK, so I
should be able to make a better 1.2 receiver to work
with it, if necessary.

[John Legon]

Post by Jim

Post by Jim

Post by John Legon
I'd rather not play with 1.2 for the time being, partly because I
have a working system and don't want to upset it, partly because
the Ross menu options are as clear as mud, and partly because I
don't want to lose the default settings on the motor - the reset
switch is a little awkward to get at once the motor is mounted.

I might try again. The system worked fine after I switched USALS back
on. I set the limits after driving the motor past the ends of my arc
and these did stop the motor when set to "move continuously" in the the
config menu.

I had another go at this, and found enough to discover
the box can't work properly in 1.2 mode without the
receiver calculating the position (i.e. USALS mode).
Although the motor will turn to the pre-stored
position assigned to the satellite in the motor config
menu, I couldn't find any command to actually store a
new position or adjust an existing one. The last
command to re-calculate position just shifts the whole
arc around. Other receivers have commands for "store
n" (n=1 to 60 for this motor), "goto n" and "goto 0"
but these are all missing from the Ross menu, unless
they're hidden away somewhere.

Totally agree with you about DiSEqC 1.2 with the Ross receiver,
and in fact have just been carrying out a little investigation
of my own, by monitoring the output from the LNB port when
various options are selected in the motor configuration menu.

Having taken a look at the Eutelsat specification, it occurred
to me that I could examine the pulse width keying of the 22kHz
tone by feeding the signal - suitably decoupled - into the sound
card of an old computer, and analyse the waveform in an editor.

It turns out that it's actually quite easy to recognise the
control codes and see exactly what the Ross is doing. DiSEqC
uses one-third width keying - 1.0 ms 22kHz tone for binary '0'
and 0.5 ms for a '1' - eight bits per byte plus one stop bit.
Here's a snapshot of part of the sample for the code used to
start the motor moving to the east:

Loading Image...

You can recognise the 0s and 1s by the different intervals
between the spikes. The whole sequence for this control is:

11100000 Framing byte
00110000 Select polar/azimuth positioner
01101000 Drive motor eastwards
00000000 Data (not needed here)

I had expected the Ross to output control codes for 'store
position n' when the menu is exited, but it doesn't. It does,
however, send the 'recalculate' sequence when you press OK.

Post by Jim
Besides these omissions, there are also problems with
the position reference assigned in motor config. It
will only allow assignment of numbers between 1 and m,
where m-1 is the number of satellites stored in the
receiver, and position 1 (13 E by default) can only be
selected when setting up a new satellite (I think it's
the receiver default when no other position has been
assigned). I had to assign position k+1 in the menu
in order to select position k, though the menu shows k
when you re-select that satellite (though it can
change again later, I've noticed). Very frustrating.

I had some fun with the reference numbers and ended up with two
number '5's. I succeeded in setting one of those to number 42
(at the end of the Telsky list) but I couldn't get it back to
what it was originally.

Post by Jim
For the satellites I could assign to pre-stored
positions (1 to 26), the receiver gave appropriate
commands to the motor. If I re-calculated on 0.8 W,
then 5W was also good, but 28 E and 30 W needed manual
adjustment to maximise signal strength. I'm guessing
that the motor's pre-stored positions are only
accurate at specific latitudes, and will generally
need minor adjustment, which, of course, isn't
possible with the Ross.
I don't know why the manufacturer would create a 1.2
positioning system as half-baked as this one seems to
be. Why bother with reference positions if the system
isn't going to be usable? Is the S220 menu any
different? The German manual doesn't suggest so. The
S2200 HD manual shows more clearly what a proper 1.2
menu should look like.

The 220 menu is the same, but I'm not bothered. The USALS set up
works perfectly well - once you reverse the directions !!

Post by Jim
The good news is that the motor seems to work OK, so I
should be able to make a better 1.2 receiver to work
with it, if necessary.

Here's a photo of my Technomate before mounting:

Loading Image...

[Jim]

<<snip>>

Post by John Legon
Totally agree with you about DiSEqC 1.2 with the Ross receiver,
and in fact have just been carrying out a little investigation
of my own, by monitoring the output from the LNB port when
various options are selected in the motor configuration menu.
Having taken a look at the Eutelsat specification, it occurred
to me that I could examine the pulse width keying of the 22kHz
tone by feeding the signal - suitably decoupled - into the sound
card of an old computer, and analyse the waveform in an editor.
It turns out that it's actually quite easy to recognise the
control codes and see exactly what the Ross is doing. DiSEqC
uses one-third width keying - 1.0 ms 22kHz tone for binary '0'
and 0.5 ms for a '1' - eight bits per byte plus one stop bit.
Here's a snapshot of part of the sample for the code used to
http://john-legon.co.uk/temp/diseqc.gif
You can recognise the 0s and 1s by the different intervals
11100000 Framing byte
00110000 Select polar/azimuth positioner
01101000 Drive motor eastwards
00000000 Data (not needed here)
I had expected the Ross to output control codes for 'store
position n' when the menu is exited, but it doesn't. It does,
however, send the 'recalculate' sequence when you press OK.

Ingenious. The box will only save settings on menu
exit.
It's possible the extra commands were there in the
intended design, but not developed and tested enough
to be ready for this release. They made it into the
2200.
<<snip>>

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
The good news is that the motor seems to work OK, so I
should be able to make a better 1.2 receiver to work
with it, if necessary.

http://john-legon.co.uk/temp/motor.jpg

The only difference I can see is that the Icecrypt has
a mark under the Latitude scale, south of the nut.
Maybe this is just not showing in the photo.

I like the big U-bolts they supply, even if they're
far too long. The single U bolt supplied with the
Ross dish just wouldn't go around that 2" tube - how
did you manage? I tried mounting the tube "through"
the bracket but it didn't sit right. Had to fit it in
front (after flattening the retaining flange) and use
straight bolts instead.

The motor manual shows two U-bolts holding the dish
bracket to the tube. I guess Ross was keeping the
price down. I'll have to keep a look-out for a pair
of longer brackets.

[John Legon]

Post by Jim

Post by John Legon
Totally agree with you about DiSEqC 1.2 with the Ross receiver,

[snip]

Post by Jim
It's possible the extra commands were there in the
intended design, but not developed and tested enough
to be ready for this release. They made it into the
2200.

The Telestar 2200 has better looking software but I doubt that many have
been sold. I don't think it can compete with the Xoro hrs 8500 HD and
clones such as the Comag SL 40 HD.

Post by Jim
<<snip>>

Post by John Legon
http://john-legon.co.uk/temp/motor.jpg

The only difference I can see is that the Icecrypt has
a mark under the Latitude scale, south of the nut.
Maybe this is just not showing in the photo.

It's just not showing in the photo.

Post by Jim
I like the big U-bolts they supply, even if they're
far too long. The single U bolt supplied with the
Ross dish just wouldn't go around that 2" tube - how
did you manage? I tried mounting the tube "through"
the bracket but it didn't sit right. Had to fit it in
front (after flattening the retaining flange) and use
straight bolts instead.

I had the same problem and found the same solution - use
long straight bolts instead of the Ross U bolt. I had to
bend back the flange but it sits nicely on the bend of the
motor shaft. This being my spare dish, the installation
was meant to be temporary. But it works well and may prove
to be permanent - as long as the bolts don't rust away...

Loading Image...

Post by Jim
The motor manual shows two U-bolts holding the dish
bracket to the tube. I guess Ross was keeping the
price down. I'll have to keep a look-out for a pair
of longer brackets.

Or two longer U-bolts.

[John Legon]

Post by Jim

Post by John Legon
Totally agree with you about DiSEqC 1.2 with the Ross receiver,
and in fact have just been carrying out a little investigation
of my own, by monitoring the output from the LNB port when
various options are selected in the motor configuration menu.

It's possible the extra commands were there in the
intended design, but not developed and tested enough
to be ready for this release. They made it into the
2200.

I've just noticed that the Telsky 220 and Telestar 2100 clones are no
longer listed on the respective Telsky/Telestar websites, though the
URL you gave for the Telsky firmware still works, I think.

Post by Jim

Post by John Legon
http://john-legon.co.uk/temp/motor.jpg

The only difference I can see is that the Icecrypt has
a mark under the Latitude scale, south of the nut.
Maybe this is just not showing in the photo.
I like the big U-bolts they supply, even if they're
far too long. The single U bolt supplied with the
Ross dish just wouldn't go around that 2" tube - how
did you manage? I tried mounting the tube "through"
the bracket but it didn't sit right. Had to fit it in
front (after flattening the retaining flange) and use
straight bolts instead.
The motor manual shows two U-bolts holding the dish
bracket to the tube. I guess Ross was keeping the
price down. I'll have to keep a look-out for a pair
of longer brackets.

The dish and bracket as illustrated on the Technomate
packing box seem to be identical to those supplied in the
Ross kit !! Only one (long) U-bolt was deemed necessary:

Loading Image...

[Jim]

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
The motor manual shows two U-bolts holding the dish
bracket to the tube. I guess Ross was keeping the
price down. I'll have to keep a look-out for a pair
of longer brackets.

The dish and bracket as illustrated on the Technomate
packing box seem to be identical to those supplied in the
http://john-legon.co.uk/temp/motorbox.jpg

OK for a small, light dish, maybe. But, when I get
that 1m one...

I was up in the loft today adding to the clutter when
I spotted an old, rusty aerial bracket with U-bolt and
nuts still attached. I'd left it there after
retrieving it from my Dad's shed about 10 years ago,
thinking "that might come in handy one day." It's the
perfect size.

Never throw anything away (but make a note of where
you left it).

[Terry Casey]

Post by Jim
Never throw anything away (but make a note of where
you left it).

I was with you at the beginning but I'm having problems with the bit that follows ...

[brightside S9]

Post by Jim
Never throw anything away (but make a note of where
you left it).

I do, I do. It is always put somewhere safe!

[John Legon]

Post by Jim
I had another go at this, and found enough to discover
the box can't work properly in 1.2 mode without the
receiver calculating the position (i.e. USALS mode).
Although the motor will turn to the pre-stored
position assigned to the satellite in the motor config
menu, I couldn't find any command to actually store a
new position or adjust an existing one. The last
command to re-calculate position just shifts the whole
arc around. Other receivers have commands for "store
n" (n=1 to 60 for this motor), "goto n" and "goto 0"
but these are all missing from the Ross menu, unless
they're hidden away somewhere.

I think I've solved this problem by looking at the DiSEqC command
packets which the receiver sends down the LNB cable to the motor.
Having now written some code to process the bit patterns, it's a lot
easier to try various possibilities and see what the box is doing.

In the motor configuration menu, if you highlight the line
"continuously move", the left and right cursor keys on the
remote will of course toggle between "east", "stop" and "west",
and the box sends the corresponding commands to the motor.

What isn't at all obvious is that pressing OK on this line when "stop"
is displayed, sends the command "store position n" to the motor !!

So in fact a working set of DiSEqC 1.2 commands is available - it's
just that the manual is useless and doesn't explain how to access them.

I might add that haven't tried this with the motor connected, because
I'm happy with the USALS mode of operation. But there's no doubt that
you can store satellite position n, where n is the indicated reference
number. BTW, this command will also enable limits, so you may need to
disable limits or reset them before moving the dish to another position.

[Jim]

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
I had another go at this, and found enough to discover
the box can't work properly in 1.2 mode without the
receiver calculating the position (i.e. USALS mode).
Although the motor will turn to the pre-stored
position assigned to the satellite in the motor config
menu, I couldn't find any command to actually store a
new position or adjust an existing one. The last
command to re-calculate position just shifts the whole
arc around. Other receivers have commands for "store
n" (n=1 to 60 for this motor), "goto n" and "goto 0"
but these are all missing from the Ross menu, unless
they're hidden away somewhere.

I think I've solved this problem by looking at the DiSEqC command
packets which the receiver sends down the LNB cable to the motor.
Having now written some code to process the bit patterns, it's a lot
easier to try various possibilities and see what the box is doing.
In the motor configuration menu, if you highlight the line
"continuously move", the left and right cursor keys on the
remote will of course toggle between "east", "stop" and "west",
and the box sends the corresponding commands to the motor.
What isn't at all obvious is that pressing OK on this line when "stop"
is displayed, sends the command "store position n" to the motor !!
So in fact a working set of DiSEqC 1.2 commands is available - it's
just that the manual is useless and doesn't explain how to access them.
I might add that haven't tried this with the motor connected, because
I'm happy with the USALS mode of operation. But there's no doubt that
you can store satellite position n, where n is the indicated reference
number. BTW, this command will also enable limits, so you may need to
disable limits or reset them before moving the dish to another position.

Wow. This box is full of surprises. Does OK also
send a store command from the Step Move menu position?
That would make more sense, as the continuous move
is a bit like the Golden Shot. (Wasn't that a German
creation, too? I'm sure I caught a shot of it
recently on one of the 19E channels.)

I'd like to try that out, but won't have time until
next week. I'll report back.

[John Legon]

Post by Jim

Post by John Legon
In the motor configuration menu, if you highlight the line
"continuously move", the left and right cursor keys on the
remote will of course toggle between "east", "stop" and "west",
and the box sends the corresponding commands to the motor.
What isn't at all obvious is that pressing OK on this line when "stop"
is displayed, sends the command "store position n" to the motor !!

Wow. This box is full of surprises. Does OK also
send a store command from the Step Move menu position?

Yes :)

Post by Jim
That would make more sense, as the continuous move
is a bit like the Golden Shot. (Wasn't that a German
creation, too? I'm sure I caught a shot of it
recently on one of the 19E channels.)
I'd like to try that out, but won't have time until
next week. I'll report back.

Please do.

[John Legon]

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
I had another go at this, and found enough to discover
the box can't work properly in 1.2 mode without the
receiver calculating the position (i.e. USALS mode).
Although the motor will turn to the pre-stored
position assigned to the satellite in the motor config
menu, I couldn't find any command to actually store a
new position or adjust an existing one. The last
command to re-calculate position just shifts the whole
arc around. Other receivers have commands for "store
n" (n=1 to 60 for this motor), "goto n" and "goto 0"
but these are all missing from the Ross menu, unless
they're hidden away somewhere.

I think I've solved this problem by looking at the DiSEqC command
packets which the receiver sends down the LNB cable to the motor.
Having now written some code to process the bit patterns, it's a lot
easier to try various possibilities and see what the box is doing.
In the motor configuration menu, if you highlight the line
"continuously move", the left and right cursor keys on the
remote will of course toggle between "east", "stop" and "west",
and the box sends the corresponding commands to the motor.
What isn't at all obvious is that pressing OK on this line when "stop"
is displayed, sends the command "store position n" to the motor !!
I might add that haven't tried this with the motor connected, because
I'm happy with the USALS mode of operation. But there's no doubt that
you can store satellite position n, where n is the indicated reference
number.

Just to be clear about this - having taken another look at the output
codes - the reference number used by the store position command is the
number assigned to the satellite in the list of satellites, and not the
reference position number in the motor configuration menu. By default,
however, the two numbers are the same...

[Jim]

Post by John Legon

Post by John Legon

I had another go at this, and found enough to discover the box can't
work properly in 1.2 mode without the receiver calculating the
position (i.e. USALS mode). Although the motor will turn to the
pre-stored position assigned to the satellite in the motor config
menu, I couldn't find any command to actually store a new position or
adjust an existing one. The last command to re-calculate position
just shifts the whole arc around. Other receivers have commands for
"store n" (n=1 to 60 for this motor), "goto n" and "goto 0" but these
are all missing from the Ross menu, unless they're hidden away
somewhere.

I think I've solved this problem by looking at the DiSEqC command
packets which the receiver sends down the LNB cable to the motor.
Having now written some code to process the bit patterns, it's a lot
easier to try various possibilities and see what the box is doing.
In the motor configuration menu, if you highlight the line
"continuously move", the left and right cursor keys on the remote
will of course toggle between "east", "stop" and "west", and the box
sends the corresponding commands to the motor.
What isn't at all obvious is that pressing OK on this line when "stop"
is displayed, sends the command "store position n" to the motor !!
I might add that haven't tried this with the motor connected, because
I'm happy with the USALS mode of operation. But there's no doubt that
you can store satellite position n, where n is the indicated reference
number.

Just to be clear about this - having taken another look at the output
codes - the reference number used by the store position command is the
number assigned to the satellite in the list of satellites, and not the
reference position number in the motor configuration menu. By default,
however, the two numbers are the same...

Well, I finally got around to looking at this again
after a break that was extended by the weather,

Initially, using DiSEqC 1,2 without USALS, I was able
to store correctly positions for 28, 19, 13E and 1W,
but could not get others to stick - they kept
returning to existing stored positions.

After reading your last paragraph, I realised that the
"Reference position" item in the motor config menu is
actually the "Goto nn" command. You enter the number
of a stored position, press OK and the motor moves the
dish to that position. (It may even work with USALS
enabled, but I haven't tried it) Once the correct
satellite positions are stored, this works while you
are in the menu. However, it gets messed up during
normal operation, where it chooses the wrong position.
The Quality display shows nothing until you enter
the correct number in the motor menu and press OK -
then the dish moves and the signal is found.

There was some indication that the command sent may be
"Goto nn+1". You may be able to verify this through
your decoder. I only tried the first few in the list.
When I go back to the motor menu, the default
Reference position value is not always the one stored
for the satellite. Also, the motor sometimes moves if
I change transponder - don't know what's going on there.

This explains why I couldn't get the stored positions
to work at my earlier attempts, though I'm not sure
how I managed initially to get 4 sats working. In my
list of sats, these four are 3, 1, 2 and 5
respectively, so the commands would have told the
motor to move to 4, 2, 3 and 6. It's possible I just
had these stored already following my earlier
attempts, when I was unaware of the Goto commands.

Like you, I'll continue to use USALS on this receiver,
but it's good to know the motor accepts the commands
OK. I wonder where the developers hid the "Goto 0"
command - did you spot that one?

[John Legon]

This is becoming a tad complicated, but I'll try to sort out the
issues if that's at all possible...

Post by Jim

Post by John Legon

Post by John Legon

I had another go at this, and found enough to discover the box can't
work properly in 1.2 mode without the receiver calculating the
position (i.e. USALS mode). Although the motor will turn to the
pre-stored position assigned to the satellite in the motor config
menu, I couldn't find any command to actually store a new position or
adjust an existing one. The last command to re-calculate position
just shifts the whole arc around. Other receivers have commands for
"store n" (n=1 to 60 for this motor), "goto n" and "goto 0" but these
are all missing from the Ross menu, unless they're hidden away
somewhere.

I think I've solved this problem by looking at the DiSEqC command
packets which the receiver sends down the LNB cable to the motor.
Having now written some code to process the bit patterns, it's a lot
easier to try various possibilities and see what the box is doing.
In the motor configuration menu, if you highlight the line
"continuously move", the left and right cursor keys on the remote
will of course toggle between "east", "stop" and "west", and the box
sends the corresponding commands to the motor.
What isn't at all obvious is that pressing OK on this line when "stop"
is displayed, sends the command "store position n" to the motor !!
I might add that haven't tried this with the motor connected, because
I'm happy with the USALS mode of operation. But there's no doubt that
you can store satellite position n, where n is the indicated reference
number.

Just to be clear about this - having taken another look at the output
codes - the reference number used by the store position command is the
number assigned to the satellite in the list of satellites, and not the
reference position number in the motor configuration menu. By default,
however, the two numbers are the same...

Well, I finally got around to looking at this again
after a break that was extended by the weather,
Initially, using DiSEqC 1,2 without USALS, I was able
to store correctly positions for 28, 19, 13E and 1W,
but could not get others to stick - they kept
returning to existing stored positions.
After reading your last paragraph, I realised that the
"Reference position" item in the motor config menu is
actually the "Goto nn" command. You enter the number
of a stored position, press OK and the motor moves the
dish to that position. (It may even work with USALS
enabled, but I haven't tried it) Once the correct
satellite positions are stored, this works while you
are in the menu. However, it gets messed up during
normal operation, where it chooses the wrong position.

Yes, pressing OK on the reference position line will send the
"Goto nn" command to the motor, but for some bizarre reason it
will also increment the reference number without giving any
indication on screen. As you know, it's only on coming back
to the menu that the change of number is apparent.

For this reason, I think it's advisable never to press OK
on this line!!

The position reference number must match the satellite number in the
list of satellites. Thus Astra/Eurobird is 4 by default in the Ross
list, but if the position is 5 in the motor menu, you'll need to
set it to 3 and press OK on this line, then exit the menu and return
(or toggle the selected satellite) to make sure that it is now 4 :)

Post by Jim
The Quality display shows nothing until you enter
the correct number in the motor menu and press OK -
then the dish moves and the signal is found.
There was some indication that the command sent may be
"Goto nn+1". You may be able to verify this through
your decoder. I only tried the first few in the list.

When in the motor menu, the box will send Goto nn - where nn
is the displayed position number - *but* the position number
will also be incremented, so the next time the satellite is
selected, the motor will go to stored position nn+1.

Post by Jim
When I go back to the motor menu, the default
Reference position value is not always the one stored
for the satellite. Also, the motor sometimes moves if
I change transponder - don't know what's going on there.

Yes again, in the motor menu, changing transponder always sends
a command to reset the dish position. In 1.2 mode, the command
is "goto stored position nn" (as above), while in USALS mode the
command is "goto angular position x.x degrees".

Post by Jim
This explains why I couldn't get the stored positions
to work at my earlier attempts, though I'm not sure
how I managed initially to get 4 sats working. In my
list of sats, these four are 3, 1, 2 and 5
respectively, so the commands would have told the
motor to move to 4, 2, 3 and 6. It's possible I just
had these stored already following my earlier
attempts, when I was unaware of the Goto commands.

Well, it's all very confusing, and the above highlights
the problem with incrementing position numbers. My advice
would be:

1. Switch on USALS.

2. In the motor configuration menu, make sure that the
reference position numbers match up with the satellite list
numbers for all satellites.

3. Select a satellite. The motor will move to the USALS position.
Tweak the position if necessary to improve the signal quality.
Changing TP here will reset the dish back to the USALS position.

4. Store the position for 1.2 operation by pressing OK on the
continuous move or step move line.

5. Repeat for all satellites

6. Switch USALS off.

Now, in 1.2 mode, selecting a satellite should take the dish to
the position stored for that satellite, and not to position n+1...

Post by Jim
Like you, I'll continue to use USALS on this receiver,
but it's good to know the motor accepts the commands
OK. I wonder where the developers hid the "Goto 0"
command - did you spot that one?

Nope, still no sign of a goto 0.

[Jim]

Post by John Legon
This is becoming a tad complicated, but I'll try to sort out the
issues if that's at all possible...

Post by Jim

Post by John Legon

Post by John Legon

I had another go at this, and found enough to discover the box can't
work properly in 1.2 mode without the receiver calculating the
position (i.e. USALS mode). Although the motor will turn to the
pre-stored position assigned to the satellite in the motor config
menu, I couldn't find any command to actually store a new position or
adjust an existing one. The last command to re-calculate position
just shifts the whole arc around. Other receivers have commands for
"store n" (n=1 to 60 for this motor), "goto n" and "goto 0" but these
are all missing from the Ross menu, unless they're hidden away
somewhere.

I think I've solved this problem by looking at the DiSEqC command
packets which the receiver sends down the LNB cable to the motor.
Having now written some code to process the bit patterns, it's a lot
easier to try various possibilities and see what the box is doing.
In the motor configuration menu, if you highlight the line
"continuously move", the left and right cursor keys on the remote
will of course toggle between "east", "stop" and "west", and the box
sends the corresponding commands to the motor.
What isn't at all obvious is that pressing OK on this line when "stop"
is displayed, sends the command "store position n" to the motor !!
I might add that haven't tried this with the motor connected, because
I'm happy with the USALS mode of operation. But there's no doubt that
you can store satellite position n, where n is the indicated reference
number.

Just to be clear about this - having taken another look at the output
codes - the reference number used by the store position command is the
number assigned to the satellite in the list of satellites, and not the
reference position number in the motor configuration menu. By default,
however, the two numbers are the same...

Well, I finally got around to looking at this again
after a break that was extended by the weather,
Initially, using DiSEqC 1,2 without USALS, I was able
to store correctly positions for 28, 19, 13E and 1W,
but could not get others to stick - they kept
returning to existing stored positions.
After reading your last paragraph, I realised that the
"Reference position" item in the motor config menu is
actually the "Goto nn" command. You enter the number
of a stored position, press OK and the motor moves the
dish to that position. (It may even work with USALS
enabled, but I haven't tried it) Once the correct
satellite positions are stored, this works while you
are in the menu. However, it gets messed up during
normal operation, where it chooses the wrong position.

Yes, pressing OK on the reference position line will send the
"Goto nn" command to the motor, but for some bizarre reason it
will also increment the reference number without giving any
indication on screen. As you know, it's only on coming back
to the menu that the change of number is apparent.
For this reason, I think it's advisable never to press OK
on this line!!

It's OK to use it for rough positioning to the nearest
other satellite, then manual stepping to the required
location. I just needed to remember to set it to
position "nn -1" and "OK" again to save as "nn".

The manual step on my motor seems to be about 1/8th of
a degree, so I set step size to 8 and moved one degree
at a time until close then finer step sizes to get it
spot on.

Post by John Legon
The position reference number must match the satellite number in the
list of satellites. Thus Astra/Eurobird is 4 by default in the Ross
list, but if the position is 5 in the motor menu, you'll need to
set it to 3 and press OK on this line, then exit the menu and return
(or toggle the selected satellite) to make sure that it is now 4 :)

I think that's what I tried first time around, before
you discovered the Goto command, but it all got a bit
entangled. I gave up after the the first few, but it
would explain why those ones were working when I went
back to it.

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
The Quality display shows nothing until you enter
the correct number in the motor menu and press OK -
then the dish moves and the signal is found.
There was some indication that the command sent may be
"Goto nn+1". You may be able to verify this through
your decoder. I only tried the first few in the list.

When in the motor menu, the box will send Goto nn - where nn
is the displayed position number - *but* the position number
will also be incremented, so the next time the satellite is
selected, the motor will go to stored position nn+1.

Post by Jim
When I go back to the motor menu, the default
Reference position value is not always the one stored
for the satellite. Also, the motor sometimes moves if
I change transponder - don't know what's going on there.

Yes again, in the motor menu, changing transponder always sends
a command to reset the dish position. In 1.2 mode, the command
is "goto stored position nn" (as above), while in USALS mode the
command is "goto angular position x.x degrees".

Not sure about this, but the former command seemed to
take a bit longer on some moves. Maybe the motor
firmware doesn't always do it in a single operation,
but slows down as it nears the position. I'll get a
better look in day-light.

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
This explains why I couldn't get the stored positions
to work at my earlier attempts, though I'm not sure
how I managed initially to get 4 sats working. In my
list of sats, these four are 3, 1, 2 and 5
respectively, so the commands would have told the
motor to move to 4, 2, 3 and 6. It's possible I just
had these stored already following my earlier
attempts, when I was unaware of the Goto commands.

Well, it's all very confusing, and the above highlights
the problem with incrementing position numbers. My advice
1. Switch on USALS.
2. In the motor configuration menu, make sure that the
reference position numbers match up with the satellite list
numbers for all satellites.
3. Select a satellite. The motor will move to the USALS position.
Tweak the position if necessary to improve the signal quality.
Changing TP here will reset the dish back to the USALS position.
4. Store the position for 1.2 operation by pressing OK on the
continuous move or step move line.
5. Repeat for all satellites
6. Switch USALS off.
Now, in 1.2 mode, selecting a satellite should take the dish to
the position stored for that satellite, and not to position n+1...

Post by Jim
Like you, I'll continue to use USALS on this receiver,
but it's good to know the motor accepts the commands
OK. I wonder where the developers hid the "Goto 0"
command - did you spot that one?

Nope, still no sign of a goto 0.

That's been a great help, thanks. I think I've
managed to get all the satellites now.

19.2E in position 01 held me up as it wouldn't
increment from the last number in the list, but
instead added a temporary "phantom" position on the
next number. I added a new dummy satellite to the
list on the same longitude and just pointed Astra 1 at
that (minus 1!) New satellites have Reference
position 01 by default - maybe that's why it's protected.

I'm so pleased with that effort, I may just leave it
on 1.2 for a while, at least until I need to reset the
motor. It may actually be slightly more accurate for
older satellites that have drifted a little.

[John Legon]

In 1.2 mode, the command is "goto
stored position nn" (as above), while in USALS mode the command is
"goto angular position x.x degrees".

Not sure about this, but the former command seemed to take a bit longer
on some moves. Maybe the motor firmware doesn't always do it in a
single operation, but slows down as it nears the position. I'll get a
better look in day-light.

Just one more detail, as you probably know, motor speed will depend upon
LNB polarization, which is selected by the supply voltage of 13 or 18 V.
Just another factor to bear in mind. Apart from that, I'm glad that we
now seem to have got the motor control with this box properly sorted...

[John Legon]

Post by Jim
I'm so pleased with that effort, I may just leave it
on 1.2 for a while, at least until I need to reset the
motor. It may actually be slightly more accurate for
older satellites that have drifted a little.

Just to complete this discussion, the accuracy issue became apparent to
me this morning when I worked out the coding of the USALS "Goto angular
position x.x degrees" data bytes. It turns out that the angles sent to
the motor are rounded off to the nearest 0.5 degree.

This means that it's possible to adjust the receiver's longitude data
for a satellite by up to half a degree without the dish actually moving
at all as a result. A further adjustment of 0.1 degree can then move
the dish in a 0.5-degree step.

So if you're looking for accuracy, it would seem that DiSEqC 1.2 is the
better option, since the positions will be stored by the motor itself
with a higher angular resolution.

I have also checked the receiver output codes for USALS against the
results of the GAAPS calculator on the Moteck website. The angles are
correct within the 0.5 degree margin.

[Jim]

Post by John Legon

Post by Jim
I'm so pleased with that effort, I may just leave it
on 1.2 for a while, at least until I need to reset the
motor. It may actually be slightly more accurate for
older satellites that have drifted a little.

Just to complete this discussion, the accuracy issue became apparent to
me this morning when I worked out the coding of the USALS "Goto angular
position x.x degrees" data bytes. It turns out that the angles sent to
the motor are rounded off to the nearest 0.5 degree.
This means that it's possible to adjust the receiver's longitude data
for a satellite by up to half a degree without the dish actually moving
at all as a result. A further adjustment of 0.1 degree can then move
the dish in a 0.5-degree step.
So if you're looking for accuracy, it would seem that DiSEqC 1.2 is the
better option, since the positions will be stored by the motor itself
with a higher angular resolution.
I have also checked the receiver output codes for USALS against the
results of the GAAPS calculator on the Moteck website. The angles are
correct within the 0.5 degree margin.

Strong satellites show maximum signal (63%) over more
than a degree - at least 10 motor steps - so the error
makes no difference to them. Marginal signals (48%)
have a sharper peak between 0.5 and 1 degree, so can
still be OK, but might be more prone to fading.

So, 28.2 degrees East is really 28, leaving Eurobird
(at 28.5) half-a-degree out? I had noticed some of
its channels can be quite weak, but thought this was
just the transponder.

I wonder if the more accurate positioning is a cause
of the delay I noticed. The dish did on one occasion
seem to go past the position, then back again (signal
peaked then fell back before recovering). It could
just have been an adjacent satellite using a similar
frequency.

[Java Jive]

IIRC, I thought I had a formula somewhere but can't seem to find it
now, this will be determined by dish size?

The greater the dish size, the greater its resolution, and therefore
the narrower but more pronounced the peak in reception. So a rotor
only being accurate to 0.5 degrees could be a significant problem with
a big dish.

Examining the specs of the common ones, most rotors seem to step in
0.1 degrees intervals, though ISTR that I've seen at least one set of
specs that claimed a greater accuracy. I find it surprising that the
receiver software seems to be throwing away this capability and only
stepping by 0.5 degrees!

Post by Jim
Strong satellites show maximum signal (63%) over more
than a degree - at least 10 motor steps - so the error
makes no difference to them. Marginal signals (48%)
have a sharper peak between 0.5 and 1 degree, so can
still be OK, but might be more prone to fading.

[Java Jive]

I've managed to find this for optical telescopes. Although without
further research I'm not sure that it would apply directly to a
satellite dish, I would think that it's likely to be at least a
similar sort of relationship:
sin res (radians) = 1.220 * wavelength / diameter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_resolution

Post by Java Jive
IIRC, I thought I had a formula somewhere but can't seem to find it
now, this will be determined by dish size?

[John Legon]

Post by Java Jive
The greater the dish size, the greater its resolution, and therefore
the narrower but more pronounced the peak in reception. So a rotor
only being accurate to 0.5 degrees could be a significant problem with
a big dish.

Agreed.

Post by Java Jive
Examining the specs of the common ones, most rotors seem to step in
0.1 degrees intervals, though ISTR that I've seen at least one set of
specs that claimed a greater accuracy. I find it surprising that the
receiver software seems to be throwing away this capability and only
stepping by 0.5 degrees!

The interval of 0.5 degrees only applies to the USALS mode of operation.

In DiSEqC 1.2 mode, the Ross HD box will step-move the motor using the
motor's own step size. This must be something like 0.1 degree for the
Moteck/Technomate, so accurate control of the dish is possible now that
the mysteries of the motor configuration menu have been penetrated...

[Jim]

John Legon wrote:
<<snip>>

Post by John Legon
In DiSEqC 1.2 mode, the Ross HD box will step-move the motor using the
motor's own step size. This must be something like 0.1 degree for the
Moteck/Technomate, so accurate control of the dish is possible now that
the mysteries of the motor configuration menu have been penetrated...

My own experiments (first positioning on 28.2 then
counting the steps to 23.5) suggested it's closer to
0.125 degree. I used 8 steps to the degree when
setting up all the other sats from the nearest
reference position and it was pretty accurate.

[John Legon]

Post by Jim
<<snip>>

Post by John Legon
In DiSEqC 1.2 mode, the Ross HD box will step-move the motor using the
motor's own step size. This must be something like 0.1 degree for the
Moteck/Technomate, so accurate control of the dish is possible now
that the mysteries of the motor configuration menu have been
penetrated...

My own experiments (first positioning on 28.2 then counting the steps to
23.5) suggested it's closer to 0.125 degree. I used 8 steps to the
degree when setting up all the other sats from the nearest reference
position and it was pretty accurate.

I seemed to be getting about 45 steps between 19.2 and 23.5 and 90 steps
between 19.2 and 28.2, which would give a step of about 0.1 degree, but
this is only a rough estimate. It's possible that our motors, although
certainly both made by Moteck, use different gearing, but neither Moteck
nor Technomate specify the angular resolution AFAICS.

Incidentally, I have now set up the Ross for DiSEqC 1.2 positioning as
well as USALS, and had a lot of fun trying to configure the reference
position numbers. Sometimes the numbers wouldn't 'stick' and I had to
try again, but I got there in the end.

I put a satellite meter between the motor and the LNB to try to improve
on the previous positions, but there wasn't much difference relative to
the receiver's USALS settings. Since it was so cold outside, I set up a
small CCTV so I could watch the meter display on the telly indoors while
stepping the motor across the satellites...

[Jim]

Post by John Legon
Incidentally, I have now set up the Ross for DiSEqC 1.2 positioning as
well as USALS, and had a lot of fun trying to configure the reference
position numbers. Sometimes the numbers wouldn't 'stick' and I had to
try again, but I got there in the end.
I put a satellite meter between the motor and the LNB to try to improve
on the previous positions, but there wasn't much difference relative to
the receiver's USALS settings. Since it was so cold outside, I set up a
small CCTV so I could watch the meter display on the telly indoors while
stepping the motor across the satellites...

I just used the box display, though I might check with
the meter. Conveniently, there's a junction where the
cable comes out of the floor next to my armchair. The
meter will work as happily there as outside.

[John Legon]

Post by John Legon
I put a satellite meter between the motor and the LNB to try to
improve on the previous positions, but there wasn't much difference
relative to the receiver's USALS settings. Since it was so cold
outside, I set up a small CCTV so I could watch the meter display on
the telly indoors while stepping the motor across the satellites...

I just used the box display, though I might check with the meter.
Conveniently, there's a junction where the cable comes out of the floor
next to my armchair. The meter will work as happily there as outside.

Hmm... I tried two types of meter indoors between the receiver and the
motor but they didn't work.

The Ross display is OK for weaker transponders, but the clipping effect
means that it's a blunt tool after the level hits 63%. This may be more
of a problem here in the south where the signals are stronger.

The meter on my other satellite box goes up to 85% for the same signal,
and the reading changes in single units instead of steps of three :)

[Java Jive]

Don't forget that a 1 degree of rotor motion doesn't exactly co-incide
with 1 degree of longitude (1st table):
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/SatelliteTV/SatelliteAnalysisRotor.html

Post by Jim
My own experiments (first positioning on 28.2 then
counting the steps to 23.5) suggested it's closer to
0.125 degree. I used 8 steps to the degree when
setting up all the other sats from the nearest
reference position and it was pretty accurate.

[Jim]

Post by Java Jive

Post by Jim
My own experiments (first positioning on 28.2 then
counting the steps to 23.5) suggested it's closer to
0.125 degree. I used 8 steps to the degree when
setting up all the other sats from the nearest
reference position and it was pretty accurate.

Don't forget that a 1 degree of rotor motion

doesn't exactly co-incide
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/SatelliteTV/SatelliteAnalysisRotor.html
If I understood the table (and I'm not certain I do),
the difference is maybe 10% at my latitude (56), over
small DLong, so the 8 steps my motor takes per degree
of longitude between satellites is actually closer to
1.1 degree of motion.

I don't think the latitude change would account for
the 20% difference between my motor and John's - it
must have different gearing.

[Java Jive]

Post by Jim
If I understood the table (and I'm not certain I do),

The table means that at, say, 50 degrees latitude one has to turn the
motor through 11.07 degrees to move the motor from its central
position +- 10 degrees. Note also that the relationship is not linear
- to achieve a further 10 degrees one would have to drive the motor
through a further 11.03 degrees, then 10.94 degrees to get another 10
degrees, etc.

Note also that the table was calculated assuming a spherical earth, so
is itself a little inaccurate, but I think all the well-known
calculator sites make this assumption. The resulting error is mostly
pretty small.

Post by Jim
the difference is maybe 10% at my latitude (56), over
small DLong, so the 8 steps my motor takes per degree
of longitude between satellites is actually closer to
1.1 degree of motion.

Seems rather surprising, but I'll take your word for it. Of course,
when specs say something like "Motor step angle: 0.1 degree", there's
no way of telling whether that is the actual step angle of the motor,
which before this discussion is what I'd naturally assumed, or whether
the manufacturer means that the step angle of the motor is equivalent
to a change in satellite longitude of 0.1 degree (at, say, the central
position)!

Post by Jim
I don't think the latitude change would account for
the 20% difference between my motor and John's - it
must have different gearing.

If the Moteck is an SG-2100 clone, then I have the instructions for
that, but the specs don't include the motor step angle. I also have
some gen on the Technomate TM-2300, but no specs. So I can't really
comment further on what the step angles ought to be.

[John Legon]

Post by Java Jive
Note also that the table was calculated assuming a spherical earth, so
is itself a little inaccurate, but I think all the well-known
calculator sites make this assumption. The resulting error is mostly
pretty small.

On the question of accuracy, I think your figures are correct as far as
they go - I've done the math - but it seems they don't go far quite
enough since they are only in perfect agreement with the Moteck "GAAPS"
calculator for a dish located on the equator. The further north or
south you go, and the greater the difference in longitude between the
dish and the satellite, the larger the discrepancy, reaching 0.6 degree
at 60 degrees of latitude and 50 degrees difference in longitude.

It's not enough to make any real difference, of course, it's just that
the GAAPS (or USALS) calculation evidently factors in another variable,
which I think is connected with the declination and ultimately depends
on the size of the Earth relative to the geostationary orbit.

[John Legon]

Post by John Legon

I'm so pleased with that effort, I may just leave it on 1.2 for a
while, at least until I need to reset the motor. It may actually be
slightly more accurate for older satellites that have drifted a little.

Just to complete this discussion, the accuracy issue became apparent to
me this morning when I worked out the coding of the USALS "Goto angular
position x.x degrees" data bytes. It turns out that the angles sent to
the motor are rounded off to the nearest 0.5 degree.
This means that it's possible to adjust the receiver's longitude data
for a satellite by up to half a degree without the dish actually moving
at all as a result. A further adjustment of 0.1 degree can then move
the dish in a 0.5-degree step.
So if you're looking for accuracy, it would seem that DiSEqC 1.2 is the
better option, since the positions will be stored by the motor itself
with a higher angular resolution.
I have also checked the receiver output codes for USALS against the
results of the GAAPS calculator on the Moteck website. The angles are
correct within the 0.5 degree margin.

Strong satellites show maximum signal (63%) over more than a degree - at
least 10 motor steps - so the error makes no difference to them.
Marginal signals (48%) have a sharper peak between 0.5 and 1 degree, so
can still be OK, but might be more prone to fading.

This maxing out at 63% (for DVB-S) is a quirk of the Ross receiver, and
doesn't reflect the "real" signal quality. I can see this clearly when
I use my other FTA box, which has better metering and peaks much more
sharply for strong signals.

So, 28.2 degrees East is really 28, leaving Eurobird (at 28.5)
half-a-degree out? I had noticed some of its channels can be quite
weak, but thought this was just the transponder.

The rounding off to 0.5 degree takes place in the computed output angle
to the motor, and not the satellite longitude. Thus for Astra at 28.2E
the figures I got yesterday by varying the longitude data were:

Sat Ross Moteck
Long. USALS GAAPS

27.8 30.5 30.8
28.0 31.0 31.0
28.2 31.0 31.2
28.4 31.0 31.4
28.6 31.5 31.6
28.8 31.5 31.8
29.0 32.0 32.0

This lack of accuracy doesn't really matter with the Ross 65 cm dish and
the major satellites, but would become an issue when using a larger (and
more selective) dish if you're trying to pin-point weaker satellites -
especially if nearby satellites are using the same TP frequencies.

I have now looked at the output from another sat box and have found that
it uses the full angular resolution for DiSEqC of 1/16 degree.

As regards Eurobird at 28.5E, the poorer signal quality may be partly
due to the slightly different position, but there is also the fact that
some of the transponders are doubled up with horizontal and vertical
polarities on the same frequency, and this increases the bit error rate.

[Java Jive]

On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 07:10:17 +0000 (GMT), "Bill (Adopt)"

Post by Bill (Adopt)

Post by law1
Ross HDR-6110USB HD Satellite Receiver

Couldn't definitely find an online manual to allow us to help you.

Post by Bill (Adopt)

Post by law1
Moteck SG2100A DiSEqC motor
Has anyone sucessfully set up this rx and motor. The rx manual doesn't
go into sufficient detail for me to complete the job.
The dish support pole, motor and dish angles are set up ok. I can move
the dish to various satellite positions via the rx, but cannot programme
the lot to work automatically, hope someone can help please!

...

Post by Bill (Adopt)
To elaborate, the motor works perfectly with both an earlier
German LiDL 'box', (discussed here many times and comprehensively
programmeable complete with timer sets et al), as presently
with a standard Humax Freesat HDR in both it's 'Non-Freesat'
mode and, when returned to 28.2E, in it's 'Freesat' guise.
The motor (Moteck=Eutelsat, I believe) directs the 82cm
dish, receiving quality signal over the known horizon from
Cuba/Ecuador in the far West North Atlantic to Bear Lake
(Alaska!) in the equally as far East across the other side
of Europe/Russia.
The two boxes can be/are programmeable for all of the sats
transmitting across this arc, although they do need to have
their 'USALS' (Universal Satellite Automatic Locator
Software) menu selected for the motor to work as intended.
Having selected USALS, (sometimes known as 'Go To X' or
inaccurately as DiSEqC 1.3), the box should automatically
direct your dish to whichever satellite and channel you
have selected. There's a slight pause while the dish pans
quietly across the horizon to your selected positions - but
it's all automatic. :))

Yes. I'm using a Satcontrol SMD3D12 rotor with a Dreambox 7000S,
quite an old model now, which can turn through 90deg, -45 to +45. This
means I can go from 37.5W Telstar 11, AMC 12 to 36.0E Eutelsat
W4,Sesat.

Post by Bill (Adopt)
The satellite positions - and copious lists of channel names etc
can be gained simply from 'What Satellite and Digital TV' maggie
- or online from all over the place via google etc. (Many
boxes even do this automatically these days).. :))

I'll mention this here in passing, but hope it's not going to be a
problem, because if it is the cure can be rather involved. I'm
presuming the OP's receiver has a complete list of satellites, but, as
the UK straddles the Prime Meridian, quite a lot depends on how they
are stored. Most receivers store the satellite data in a file called
satellites.xml. If the satellite positions in this file run from -180
to +179deg, then no problems should be encountered in setting up a
rotor in the UK, but if they run from 0 to 359, then, depending on the
intelligence, or rather the lack of it, in the receiver software,
problems can occur because the satellites the rotor will sweep will
wrap around from 360 back to 0 in the middle of its range. I fixed
this by making my own satellites.xml file, but it's probably not a job
for the first-timer.

Post by Bill (Adopt)
As for addiional setting up help then 'Java Jive' is an excellent
source of considerable and specialised help - I'm sure he'll role
up in a moment should you request... :))

Well, I hope I can live up to this flattering description, for which
thanks, but, to be truthful, I'm more likely to be of help at the
alignment stage, which the OP seems already to have negotiated
successfully.

But, for the benefit of others if not the OP, let's start there
anyway. With a rotor the following are absolutely critical:
* Fixing post vertical
* When the rotor is in the central, no east or west deflection,
position, it must point accurately to true south (in the northern
hemisphere, true north in the southern).
* The tilt of the rotor (some rotor scales measure tilt from
vertical, others from horizontal) from *horizontal* should equal the
*latitude* of the site, from *vertical* should equal *90-latitude*, or
if using a 'forward' tilt (recommended) slightly different from that
as determined by an alignment settings calculator that calculates
forward tilts accurately, such as, ahem, my own:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/SatelliteTV/SatelliteCalculator.php
* The elevation set on the dish must be corrected for the tilt of
the rotor (including any 'forward' correction), its crank angle, and
if necessary the offset of the dish. Again a good calculator page
should do that.

Before trying to set up the receiver, ensure that the satellite
nearest the mid-point of the rotor's swing is the one expected.
Depending on where the site is in the country, it could be from
Atlantic Bird 4A/Nilesat 101/102,7.0W for the Outer Hebrides to Astra
1C, 2.0EThor for East Anglia, but for many, perhaps the majority,
it'll be Thor 3/5/6/Intelsat 10-02,0.8W. Check this by comparing what
is being received from it against Lyngsat (http://www.lyngsat.com).
This point is also absolutely critical, as otherwise both the human
and the machinery will likely get hopelessly confused.

Then you need to set up the receiver. It's difficult to second guess
the instructions of an unknown unit, but whereever they are in the
menu system and whatever they are called, there are three things that
must be achieved:
* You have to tell the receiver that you have a rotor. There may be
a menu option which includes a list of choices similar to some or all
of the following:
+ Single satellite
+ 2 satellites via DiSEqc A/B
+ Many satellites via DiSEqc rotor
* Depending on the option chosen above, there will likely be a
further choice which allows the actual selection of one or more
satellites. Here you need to choose, probably in the correct order
from west to east, the satellites that the rotor is expected to find.
* You have to tell the receiver how it should control the rotor. As
others have suggested, the correct setting is USALS or GoToXX or
GoToXY. There may also be a choice to sense the motor input power and
a threshold value. I would leave that unselected for now, we'll cross
that bridge only if we have to..

[Java Jive]

Oops, copy'n'paste-o! Should of course be
Astra 1C, 2.0E for East Anglia

Post by Java Jive
Astra
1C, 2.0EThor for East Anglia